Disagree with today’s quiz, question 2

[Bobthebuilder97]

Just took the quiz.

IMHO, stopping the stroke at the butt leaves too much power on the table.

Fact is, if you aren’t using the water behind your butt it’s evidence that you aren’t rotating your core.

Simple experiment: paddle 1/2 mile toes-to-butt. Measure your pace. Now paddle 1/2 mile butt-to-stern. Measure your pace.

That’s what you’re leaving on the table when you abort your stroke too soon.

I’ve always found it funny that you’re urged to rotate your core, and then restricted to a stroke that can be accomplished without rotating.

IMHO

[canoeswithduckheads]

Empower an hour
wiggle and glower
stem-to-stern paddle along

with much wet heavy liftin’
recourse always shiftin’
come’s a six-mile sense all is wrong.

[Sawgrass]

Paddle Tip: Removing the Barriers Limiting Your Stroke!

[Bobthebuilder97]

Love the poetry. But my one stroke for every two of my paddlin buddies says water left in the water is water wasted

[Durangatan]

Because every national team coach working with people with advanced degrees in exercise science and kinesiology, measuring lactate, using EMG, extensive video analysis on the water and on an erg are wrong, but a douche bag with a YouTube channel and a white board is right.

[Peter-CA]

What quiz are you talking about?

[Jyak]

Most of the advice offered by experienced competitive paddlers is sound and vlid for paddlers with a genetic predisposition for strength and endurance, the time to practice and to physically condition muscle groups.

Aside from buying a lighter, more streamlined boat, there are two paths to increase speed - paddle harder or paddle more efficiently. Paddling harder only lasts as long as your energy holds up. Paddling once to another person’s two strokes is about efficiency. I believe that only happens if you’re sensitive to the boat and how the paddle enters the water cleanly, locks in the water to move the boat forward, and track straight because your sense of balance enables shifting the boat to improve tracking through edging.

Encouraging paddlers to push harder or overreach can cause injuries and lead to inefficiency. Weight lifting, aerobic excercise regiments and paddling wildly should only be done under professional guidance and then it should be approached gradually. I can’t count the number of members who suffered muscle injuries then asked how long it will be before they can do it all over again. I don’t recall ever hearing anyone ask for advice about what caused the injury and how to avoid reinjury in the future.

I figured out that hammering the water with the paddle and overextending could easily exceeded the power range of muscle groups and lead to fatigue (hold a weigh partially extended, fully outstretched, and then lean forward to see if you have the same strength and level of endurance). While an experienced kayaker might be able to assimilate complex paddling techniques, the novice paddler might be better served by focusing on balance and paddling efficiency. Animated gestures, reaching and shifting balance will cause the kayak to turn, even if you don’t realize it’s happening. The best strategy is to find a centered balance, develop a consistent stroke that enters the water cleanly and swings through the power arc with the blades perpendicular to the resistance. Build on the power and speed of the boat rather going after instant acceleration. Pay attention to how your lean influences tracking. As you become aware of how the boat reacts to a lean, most kayaks designed to track relatively straight will respond to edging automatically.

[Bobthebuilder97]

Basic Kayak Strokes

per the video: “anything past the hips is wasted motion” . . . couldn’t disagree more

[Durangatan]

Got data? Got any real professional paddlesports credentials? Or are you just a troll searching for clicks?

[Durangatan]

There is a paper in the professional journal Sports Biomechanics from (I think) 2011 that deals with injury related to the forward stroke. It also cites numerous other studies that will keep you busy for the rest of the week. Look that up as The Source of the Truth.

[Peter-CA]

Perhaps saying “anything behind the hips is wasted” is a bit too simplified and meant for the beginner level paddler that the video is aimed at.

But as the in-the-water paddle blade goes further behind your hips, the angle of the blade changes from vertical, which is mostly propelling you forward, to more front-back horizontal, where you are lifting water up. This reduces forward motion efficiency as some of your energy is used to lift the water instead of make you go forward. The further back you go, the more lifting and less propelling forward.

The higher the angle of your stroke, the faster you start lifting water as you pass your hips. Racers generally use high angle strokes, so very much avoid going back behind their hips.

[Durangatan]

Winner winner chicken dinner. The reason that the naive think that there is so much to be gained is because lifting water provides a satisfying sense of resistance - like they are propelling themselves forward.

This post should be shut down. The OP is nothing but a troll with zero knowledge.

FYI a performance forward stroke is a high angle thing because the paddle’s short power phase is as parallel to the keel line as possible. Look at ICF specs and how that is being managed. Of course, with a wing, that dynamic changes slightly.

[rstevens15]

Paddling past your hips is often referred to as shoveling water and wastes energy by rocking the boat side to side as you lift the blade through the water. While feeling that you are accomplishing something due to the effort it takes, it is contributing less and less to moving the boat forward.

[Jyak]

Before commiting to that logic, look at the power arc of a high angle power stroke and a low angle stroke. Also, consider where the power range is in the high angle stroke compared to the low angle stroke. If you consider using the high angle stroke in relation to shoveling snow, how efficiently would you be able to move the snow if holding the shovel like a paddle, and where do you think you’d be able to continue delivering power as the shovel passes the hip. At some point, the extended sweep begins to lose power. When that happens, it comes down to whether you’d be better served to cut the power cycle shorter as the power range diminishes and invest that time in resetting the stroke in a stronger range within the padfling arc. Now that gets tricky to figure out, and shoveling snow is different than paddling, but it should be easy to test the concept by sitting on an elevated seat and attaching bungee cords to a pole. If you load additional bungees on the pole, you should be able to see where your power range deteriorates as you pass your hips.

Look at the practical cadence of both techniques, the length of the power phase and the amount of time it takes to transition (when no power is applied) from the exit until the paddles transition to the catch, which begins the next power phase. Measure how long it takes the power blade to reach the water for the catch.

I checked with high angle, from catch to exit, and measured a sweep of about (+/-) 6 ft. With my 250 cm (98 inches) Euro, mynlow angle sweep is about 92 inches from catch to exit, using the paddle box and torso rotation, while managing 72 to 80 spm. When I release at the exit, the paddle quickly snaps to level with the power blade poised about 16 inches from the water.

Although a one to one comparison between propulsion based on different square inch paddles is probably not reliable. It at least shows the theoretical resistance (not scientifically conclusive):

110 sq in (710 cm2) x 50 to 60 spm = 5,500 to 6,600
99.7 sq in (643 cm2) x 72 to 80 spm = 7,178 to 7,976

It can be argued that high angle is more powerful, but consider that the transition reset from exit to catch is several times faster for low angle than high angle. Racing aficionados show videos of highly conditioned Olympic champions or IFC marathoners in gucci boats battering the water at a high cadence, which might suggest that they can sustain that pace for 18 miles. Ok. If they can do that, anybody can do that. Being the best in the world doesn’t come into play. Nobody highlights number two though last.

I’d be reluctant to suggest that everybody can over extend by 10 to 20% and expect better performance.

[davbart]

Who only paddles a half mile? “Power” shouldn’t be the main concern of a paddle stroke, but rather it should be efficiency. The “power” gained (debatable) from going past your hip isn’t worth the energy used; in other words it is inefficient.

[Durangatan]

Actually, distance for marathon ICF is 26 miles. By referring to them as "Gucci boats, and “battering water” you do a great job of positing your knowledge base and skill level. And number two through last are aspiring to and working on that same movement pattern, because peer reviewed research and competition have proven its effectiveness, regardless of if in a flatwater boat, slalom, playboat wildwater boat, or other.

OK. Let’s look at the power and efficiency of a low and high angle stroke. Show me the data from peer reviewed journals.

What passes for knowledge in this forum group is garbage.

[Jyak]

Makes sense to me. It’s easy to confuse paddle movement with power. I often hear comparisons about paddles that credit how one paddle moves easier through the water.

Overpowering a paddle increases speed the way spinning your car tires contributes to acceleration. Anyone who doubts that should read that several times for it to sink in. You will know the paddle isn’t catching and offering resistance when it flutters, oscillates, cavitates, forms air bubbles, or creates vortexes on the tips. You can feel it and see it.

The value of over exertion effort can be measured by how long you can sustain it. The more fit you are, the longer you can sustain anerobic effort, but beware - when you run out of juice, you bonk, and good luck after that. As Dave points out, who limits a trip to 1/2 mile. I think I use more energy loading and unloading the kayak.

[Sawgrass]

[Jyak]

I have no credentials and never claimed or implied that I have any. My statements are not directed toward dedicated athletes who are genetically gifted, highy conditioned, and committed to spend their free time taking classes studying science or spend time in a gym preparing for a race. I just think it’s, I’m not sure whether to view your perspective as bragidicious or naive to believe the average kayaker is capable of achieving the level of performance that the professional athletes achieve. Don’t you think that diminishes the dedication and effort put in by the successful athlete. Are you suggesting that if anyone follows your suggestions, they’ll be competitive.

No, I’m not challenging you or your techniques. I’m not aspiring to beat you or offer competitive techniques. I’m trying to get through to the novice in a rec boat. It shocks me that you feel threatened or insulted by my content. I looked at your marathon video . . . YOU are insulted by my portrayal of beating the water. Heh! I retract the comment. They are stroking the water at vigorous rate. The Gucci comment means no disrespect. I used that term about another members kayak to imply that it was high end, and it was viewed as a compliment. So I’ll retract that as well. You might appreciate my perspective if you understand that I paddle a 15 year old 17’6" x 24" plastic Tsunami that weighs 69 lbs. Any boat that cost more that the original price of $1,599 is a gucci boat, if it costs between $3,600 and $6,000. So call me a rube hillbillie.

I’m no athlete at 74 yrs old. I’m 6"1’ and weigh 235 lbs. My left rotator cuff is non-functional with two permanently detatched tendons out of the four that normally keep the shoulder joint in the socket. The joint has advanced sepsis induced porosity (arthritis). Technically, I shouldn’t be able to kayak without pain in both shoulder. During the past three seasons, I only found time to get out on the water 20 times per season. I’ve never attended a formal training course for kayaking. My high avg speed over 21.65 miles in a 145 Tsunami was 4.99 mph, and over 38.75 miles in a 175 Tsunami, I averaged 4.65 mph with 1/4 of the trip against about a 3 mph tidal ebb.

Despite the passage of 15 years, physical debilities, and limited time to access the water, I managed to equal my best times from before I turned 60 yrs old. My free time since I retired at 55 yrs old was mainly devoted to working part-time for a friend building custom furniture and building an addition to my current house.

I’ve posted my trip charts elsewhere. I’m not blowing smoke on anyone or claiming any accolades. I’m simply thrilled that I could managed to equal my earlier record. It took three years to claw back to that goal after starting a painful 2.9 mph avg on the first trip in July 21, following the recovery from my shoulder injury.

I’ve only been out once this year, and that was to test my new 260 cm Kalliste which is intended to.replace my 250 cm model. The trip results actially shocked me, because I tylically start the season at around 4.1 avg mph.

What I have learned is how to hit a target average speed and bracket the speed within a +/- range of a few tenth of a mph, whether going into wind and tides or with an assist.

I don’t mean this as a slight to your methods, but I don’t have the stamina, physical ability, or desire to invest the time or commitment to model your superior technique. This is as good as I get, but I hope to improve my average by another .25 mph if I can find time to get back on the water.

I’m a ham and egg kayaker. if I can help a novice get to my level, I’ll gladly hand them off to you.

[Durangatan]

“No, I’m not challenging you or your techniques.”

They are not “my” techniques. These are the techniques that are proven in competition and in peer reviewed studies on the subject as being the most efficient and biomechanically advantageous. Search the Journal of Applied Biomechanics for more.

“Are you suggesting that if anyone follows your suggestions, they’ll be competitive.”

Not at all. They will be paddling efficiently, and safely. They will have a foundation that will serve them well no matter what boat they paddle, no matter what the condition. As I tell students and instructor candidates, “There are very few things that you need to do to move a boat efficiently. The better that you can do those few things, the better you will be as a paddler.” It is all about fundamentals. Nail those few fundamentals. There are no “advanced techniques”. There are no “secrets”. Just deep understanding.

“…if I can help a novice get to my level, I’ll gladly hand them off to you.”

Please don’t - unless you start them correctly. In both alpine skiing (I’m a certified instructor and licensed race coach) and paddling people come to me and spend their money to help them rewire poor movement patterns picked up from well meaning, but misinformed friends.