planing vs. displacement hulls…
With the rail on the surf kayak, I am assuming it would roll similarly to a playboat. However, an old-school whitewater boat such as an RPM is a breeze to roll. A flat bottom slicey playboat/surf kayak require a bit more precision and force when rolling and yes most sea kayaks are easier than those at least initially.
yes we speak the same language!!!
oh and ALEX do yourself a favor and look at this, though it might break your heart.
http://spyglasshill.com/Webcam/
Can you say “I wanna play hooky bad.”
dearth of info
on the quajaq forum. Or at least I am not finding much on hand placement and securing of the avataq. Lots of information of how to use it to screw up your roll so you can demonstrate the effectiveness of your roll, but precious little on how to hold it and use it as a roll tool.
I guess i can try to hold it with both hands on the top of it and then hip snap aggressively and roll up facing the deck?
The way I was doing it was almost sweeping out with the paddle float on my left hand and reaching over the boat with my right , hip snapping and using the flotation of the paddlefloat to help me over the back deck.
paul
this is what I was thinking of from
qajaq usa
“with a hunting float tied to the deckline at the isserfik (deck beam immediately behind the cockpit) at the side of the kayak (i.e., as opposed to putting the float on the aft deck of the kayak”).
For a roll starting with a capsize on the left, the float is tied to the right side of the kayak, and vice-versa. Float is tied tightly with one line to the decklines aft of the cockpit and another line to the decklines at the stern so that float rides in the water on the side of the kayak just aft of the cockpit. Once float is rigged, perform a standard roll (with paddle), the float provides strong resistance to test your roll. Five points/side.
But this is the paddle roll with float attached. Also good skill to have.
I wouldn’t worry too much about technique, go out and have fun with it.
yes I saw that one
I guess I was looking for some sort of placement of the body and avataq for a “approved” avataq roll. otherwise I will just have fun with it and use it as a path towards the more elusive norsaq and hand rolls.
paul
If I remember correctly,
you just ordered the “big three” books of skin boat building; Cunningham’s book has some step-by-step, illustrated instuctions towards the back of the book on sculling and rolls including the avataq roll.
Jim
found it
Yes the books arrived a couple of days ago. I have been looking at the construction but did not look at the pics of the rolls yet. thanks!
Paul
Avataq roll
Paul,
On the Qajaq USA site under Kayaking Technique / Rescues there is a link to John Heath’s SeaKayaker article on “Eskimo Rescue Technique” http://www.seakayakermag.com/1997/jun97/eskroll.htm .
John’s article has information on how to hold and perform the avataq roll.
Greg Stamer
Competition Avataq Roll
Keith,
The avataq roll performed in competition is very different, as you have indicated. Here you are fighting the resistance of the attached float – a worst case scenario for a kayak hunter.
This is a great roll to practice in a safe environment. Practical? This is similar to rolling up with inflated gear bags that have shifted in place to make recovery more difficult. You don’t need an avataq to practice this, use a medium-large volume drybag.
Note that the float is not centered on the aft deck (as it would normally be for hunting in Greenland). For a roll starting with a capsize on the left, the float is tied to the right side of the kayak, and vice-versa. This means that to roll up you have to push the float under the water.
This is not much problem with a strong extended standard Greenland roll, but sometimes the float will get “stuck” under the hull if tied loosely. You will be very unstable in this position and can capsize from that or from the float violently breaking free.
Greg Stamer
it’s dark outside…
but I’m assuming that’s a webcam showing me killer waves that I can’t surf. sigh…
“approved” avataq roll
Paul,
There is no “approved” method of rolling up with an avataq – to the Greenlanders it’s an emergency move and the goal is to recover.
That said, in addition to John Heath’s two-hand method, I usually roll up with it one-handed as you did.
You are essentially doing a “butterfly move” (a layback where you sweep with one hand and the non-sweeping hand reaches up and over the hull as a counterweight. Your arms separate on recovery, similar to the wings of a butterfly opening). This technique is used for the “armpit” roll, rolling with a “brick” and for the hand and norsaq rolls that start forward and finish with a layback recovery. For these techniques (and all layback moves) the Greenlanders want to see the sweeping hand palm-up. Why? Try laying on the ground on your back (think layback roll) and making a “snow angel” (move your arms along the ground and touch hands near your head) and notice which hand position (palm-up or palm-down) gives you much more freedom of motion.
Greg Stamer
Greg…thanks
So for now I will just use it as anothter tool in the box for capsize recovery and to have a little fun with.
On another note, do you remember me talking about the 36 dollar storm paddle I got on e-bay? Well unfortunately, the loom was way too thick and the construction was not the greatest. I did manage to roll with it though so I guess that is what was important.
During the hurricane, I had the storm paddle leaning up against the garage wall and in the moving of everything back out to the patio etc, it fell on the cement floor, effectively snapping off the two edges of the paddle (about a 2 inch piece of hardwood) This left me with a storm paddle that was 4 inches shorter and still way too thick (compared to the Beale anyway). So I had been looking at it in disgust and reminding myself theat you get what you pay for when it finally occured to me that the paddle size of the storm paddle was almost identical to the Norsaq pictures I had seen on the net.
Tonight I will be sawing that paddle down and will fashion two very serviceable Norsaq’s!
The loom can serve as a billy club for the pythons around here…
Paul
I say No!
I can do that, and I still can’t roll for beans. Maybe I’ll have better luck in the pool this winter.
LOL…Lou
Lou
– Last Updated: Nov-10-05 4:38 PM EST –
You checked EJ's video yet?
nudge nudge
lesson in humility
Well I tried out my homemade faux-norsaq yesterday and couldn’t do a damned thing with it. I am going to try again today because I am going to try and use the momentum in the roll to get myself up instead of a static set up and hip snap with a slap on the water with the paddle to help stabilize.
It is really weird. I am so used to twisting underwater and extending the arm out and I am fine with that.
The comment about having the palm upwards is baffling me. I can understand the sweep with the body outward and towards the back deck with the palm up but how do you do the slap on the water to help get up?
leaning back with the face up to the sky almost puts you back in the same initial confusion i felt when being upside down…just doesn’t make sense yet.
I get the feeling that I have to lean way back on the deck while underwater first and then snap the hip and use the norsaq/hand only slightly? In other words, twist the body underwater while using the momentum caused by capsizing and end up arched over the back deck under the water while initiating the hip snap and throwing the free hand/arm over the boat and “slapping” the water with the hand with the norsaq to give that little nudge? Sounds good anyway…now if Ican just get the 50 year old body to figure it out on it’s own…
All this is very interesting but not insurmountable…I flat out refuse to believe that I am not going to succeed today.
Ok maybe tomorrow. but soon!
Paul…
some more hand roll tips…
Paul,
I think you may be confusing several different hand roll types. For the traditional palm up norsaq roll, you start tucked forward and with the palm facing up, you sweep the norsaq across the surface of the water while hipsnapping and sweeping your body onto the back deck. There is no “slap” of the water as it is the equivalent to a sweep rather than a C-to-C and it relies more on the lateral pressure from the water in the sweeping motion. Leaning all the way on the back deck and rolling is sometimes called “log rolling” and although it is an easy roll to do once you dial in your hipsnap, it can cause you to dislocate a shoulder if done incorrectly. Another point to make is that in regards to rolling, the boat ALWAYS rolls before the body. Therefore for the hand roll/norsaq roll, you need to aggressively hipsnap and time it so that the boat starts rotating first and then the body sweeps out and back to finish the roll while driving up on the rolling knee the entire time.
If you want to do a palm down hand roll (my personal preference), what you should do (if rolling up on the right side) is tuck forward and to the side, stroke down on the water with your left hand while hipnapping hard immediately followed by stroking with the right hand (at this point you are crossing your right arm over the top of the left arm and then scissoring your arms apart). At this point, still driving up on the rolling knee, the left arm is thrown across the opposite side of the boat as a counter balance and you sweep back onto the backdeck to complete the roll. It is quite difficult to picture with just a description, but you will see that it is how EJ will do hand rolls in his video.
You have a good attitude and I hope you are successful. Of course everytime I get out on the water I tell myself that I’m POSITIVE that I’m going to hit a straitjacket roll and each time so far I’ve come home with a good helping of humble pie. Remember, if your hand roll/norsaq roll isn’t working, focus on the standard roll (non-extended) and other rolls such as the butterfly/angel roll. A handroll is only a standard roll done with much stronger form/precision so learning other paddle rolls will reinforce good habits and muscle memory.
Alex
Kayak Roll, 1st Roll, Other?
– Last Updated: Nov-11-05 3:47 PM EST –
I've lost track LOL! Lou
P.S. I've studied both of these
Some more comments
Alex,
Great post. I’ll just wanted to inject some comments into your text.
“I think you may be confusing several different >hand roll types. For the traditional palm up norsaq roll, you start tucked forward and with the palm facing up, you sweep the norsaq across the surface of the water while hipsnapping and sweeping your body onto the back deck. There is no “slap” of the water” SNIP
This technique (both hand roll and norsaq roll) is the same as the “armpit roll” using a paddle. As Alex says, there is no “slap”. You get purchase and lift from the paddle/norsaq/hand and your torso sweeping through the water. This, combined with your body stretched out away from the kayak, with your head close to the surface, causes the kayak to start to rotate and to lie on its side. Your hipsnap simply amplifies this rotation.
“Leaning all the way on the back deck and rolling is sometimes called “log rolling” and although it is an easy roll to do once you dial in your hipsnap, it can cause you to dislocate a shoulder if done incorrectly.”
I agree, however anytime you allow your arms to move independently of your torso and “get behind you”, you risk dislocation, whether you are laying back or not. As an example, many people get into a dislocation position by performing a bad stern rudder – that is they just sling their arms behind them to place the paddle at the stern rather than rotating their torso to place the paddle. The key is to keep your arms linked to torso action. The old adage “keep your chest facing the paddle shaft as much as possible” is still a good one.
Go carefully with hand rolling practice. Without a paddle to limit your motion it is very easy to move your arms into dangerous positions. It’s also common to use excessive arm force or motion in attempt to “help” a borderline roll. The only shoulder injury I have had kayaking was from sweeping too forcefully and getting my arms behind me when first learning to hand roll. It takes some time to learn that it’s your body action that drives a hand roll – not your arms or your hands (or your paddle).
“If you want to do a palm down hand roll (my personal preference), what you should do (if rolling up on the right side) is tuck forward and to the side, stroke down on the water with your left hand while hipnapping hard immediately followed by stroking with the right hand”
Derek Hutchinson has a good image of this roll in his rolling book. I like this roll too. It is quite different from the Greenland rolls in that it is done to the side. I also do this roll palm-down. All Greenland rolls are done either leaning forward or aft. Regardless of whether you roll with your hand, norsaq or paddle, they are performed palm down for the forward finishing rolls (a low-brace move) and palm up for the aft finishing rolls (a high-brace move).
Greg Stamer
Study is overrated as a learning tool
What have you applied from these videos in practice?
Too much thinking. Too much figuring. Too much devising various aids/methods/crutches.
Just drop all that and roll already!
still no luck
– Last Updated: Nov-15-05 6:49 AM EST –
but homing in on it!
Pissed me off getting home last night after work just to see the thunderclouds homing in on my lake!
(insert expletive here)
Paul