Relationship to balance brace
One other point I think is worth mentioning is the close relationship between the palm-up rolls and the balance brace. What I’ve been taught to focus on is rolling around into the balance brace position then sliding onto the back deck. Roll around, sweeping your arm out while rotating the kayak with your onside knee, into the balance brace position. You can pause there when first practicing the roll if that helps. Then arch your back as strongly as possible (my head is driven deeper below the surface at this point) and use your abdominal muscles to pull yourself onto the back deck, trying to have you head and back right on the deck, look back at the stern if your flexibility permits (mine doesn’t). Work on this using the progression of standard roll, to butterfly roll, to norsaq roll, to hand roll and on to the really hard variations. Dan S. always wants to rolls done slower and slower. It’s surprising just how slowly you can move and still roll the kayak when the technique is correct.
When first learned to do norsaq and then hand rolls I had to sweep back with the palm up, then strongly rotate the hand downward to pop the kayak up. This seems to be the roll John Heath describes in Eastern Arctic Kayaks, if I understand his description correctly. Do I have this right Greg? This is a powerful roll but does stress my shoulder. As my technique improved, I found I needed less and less arm force until a palm up, and later a closed fist, roll was possible. A well performed palm up version places almost no stress on the arm/shoulder, all the effort comes from the hips/abdominals.
Hope this helps.
Ralph
Once you achieve…
…the level of Greenland Kayaking God, thunder and lightning will no longer bother you as a static brace will leave you at a lower level than most wavetops.
Just make sure you take a Euro-style paddler out with you and keep him at least 200meters away as he will be a fantastic lightning rod.
Oh, and bring your waterproof camera for some action shots.
;^)
and I always wnted to be Thor…
oh well. and by the way..I think Schizopak already has the Greenland kayaking God title sewn up.
I will content myself with being a lesser , er, well something anyway.
Paul
i’m not a Greenland anything!
I’m just a kid who discovered the functional efficiency of a Greenland paddle and who found that all those impossible looking rolls were really quite possible with enough practice. Of course if only I could say the same about those impossible looking playboating tricks. I wish it could be as easy as learning rolls. Heck in this past year, I must have learned a dozen new rolls and in that same timespan I’m JUST starting to consistantly bow initiate my playboat and am just starting to consider linking ends. My bow stall still is only for like 3 seconds. Weak. 
that’s a tough thing to learn…
For most people, a paddle free balance brace is much tougher than hand rolls as people initially rely on the boats rolling momentum to help them up. If a person can balance brace without a paddle, I’d wager that person can already handroll as there is only a slight shift in body position which finishes that roll. Of course for many higher volume sea kayaks, this is even tougher (although a masik and tuilik help immensely). The butterfly roll is my measuring stick and a great training tool for rolling. Whenever I get in a boat, the first roll I try typically is the butterfly roll. Because I can slow that roll down to a crawl, I can immediately find out about the boat’s righting tendancies and I typically know right away whether or not I can hand roll the boat. I’ve been on the receiving end of Dan’s (and Cheri, and Freya, and Turner) suggestion to slow down my rolls. My hipsnap is pretty strong so it is a tough thing for me to slow things down but it definitely helps dial in my form.
Ralph, as for the palm up, sweeping back, and pushing down, that description scares the hell out of me because it’s the classic shoulder dislocation position. Obviously you corrected that form with practice but I’d be a bit wary of teaching that method.
…balance brace
Ralph,
I’ll add my comments with yours, below.
“One other point I think is worth mentioning is the close relationship between the palm-up rolls and the balance brace. What I’ve been taught to focus on is rolling around into the balance brace position then sliding onto the back deck.”
That’s a good point. Both Greenland sculling and the balance brace techniques are closely related to each other, and both are related to all high brace techniques such as a layback roll. However, learning to hand-roll by way of a balance brace is very kayak-dependent. The kayak that I first learned to handroll would not permit a layback.
“When first learned to do norsaq and then hand rolls I had to sweep back with the palm up, then strongly rotate the hand downward to pop the kayak up. This seems to be the roll John Heath describes in Eastern Arctic Kayaks, if I understand his description correctly. Do I have this right Greg?”
I don’t teach any downward movement of the hand for the layback (palm-up) rolls. Doing so would be an easy way to dislocate your shoulder. My torso/arm sweeps out and away from the kayak (like making a snow angel). This puts downward pressure on the water during the sweep, creating lift, but the sweeping hands stays near the surface (there is no abrupt downward movement of the hand). The armpit roll is a good model for the layback (palm-up) handrolls. I like to have students perform an armpit with a paddle, then with a norsaq, and then their bare hand (sticking your hand inside a partially inflated paddle-float works well too as long as it is not too full of air – which would let you use bad form).
For the forward leaning handrolls (palm-down) I do move my hand forward and down, or add a bit of a scull. For the C-to-C style handrolls (done to the side of the kayak), my palm is down and I add a downward movement with my hands (I often do a two-handed roll sweeping first my left hand, then my right hand, to roll up on my right side).
Greg Stamer
“very kayak-dependent"
Indeed - at least for those of average or less flexibility and fitness.
I am far from being able to do a balance brace in my QCC. It’s 10” deep at the side and rear coaming and simply will not allow me to stay low enough in the water and get the hull twisted over to the sweet spot at the same time. I’m sure it’s possible - probably by coming quite a bit out of the cockpit - but maybe not functional/practical.
I could do a balance brace right off in a Yost folder I tried, letting go of the paddle. I expect similar when my SOF is done.
I the right boat - a fairly easy thing. In the wrong boat - maybe more trouble than it’s worth?
Correction…
I guess the word study on it’s own was unclear. I should have said studied (as in viewing a few times) and applied in the water. When the water warms up again (a long time from now), I’m going to continue with the First Roll technique. If I can scrape up some bucks for pool class this winter, I’ll try rolling by the edge of the pool.
Lou
theory about lalleluia
I am starting to have my doubts about Lou. In fact I think we have all been had.
My theory is that Lou is a 5 star BCU coach with comparable ACA ratings, is an expert Greenland roller, and does this solely to get Greyaks goat. Additionally, I believe he is secretly teaching Schizopak the straightjacket roll.
whaddya think?
paul
No, some just prefer…
… doing things the hard way.
Paul - The difference is Lou KNOWS how hard rolling is. Probably raised to think hard work is good, that anything worth learning can’t be easy, etc.
You and I were just too stupid know any better so we never got sucked into the “difficult” mindset. We also get to cheat with nice warm water, GPs, etc.
I was naive enough to assume that since others could (and easily!) I could too, curious enough to play with it, and just lazy enough to relax and let the water do most of the work.
It reminds me of the cartoon where Bugs Bunny can easily defy the Law of Gravity because he “… never studied Law!”
Intermediate position
You don’t have to be able to do a balance brace without the paddle to do the hand roll, but that is the intermediate position through which your body passes when performing the roll. Depending on how much floatation I’m wearing, (and the boat) my face may be underwater at that point. I think someone should learn the balance brace with whatever added floatation is necessary, then realize that that is the position (knee rotating the boat, back arched, head back) through which your body should pass when performing a butterfly, norsaq or hand roll. A small scull with the norsaq will support me in that position when my floatation is inadequate to simply float there.
I’m not recommending the sweep out then down approach, just pointing out that was the progression I happened to use when learning the roll. I don’t believe it is very different from the arm sweeps used during some European style hand rolls.
Ralph
Thanks
Thanks Greg,
See my comments above about the balance brace.
I also should have added that it really helps to slide forward in the boat when doing these rolls.
I’m still curious, when John Heath describes in Eastern Arctic Kayaks the norsaq and hand rolls, he says to sweep out, then down. I can dig up the exact quote tonight. Do you know if the Greenlanders use other variations than those described in the competition list for thse rolls?
Ralph
Eastern Arctic Kayaks quote
"I’m still curious, when John Heath describes in Eastern Arctic Kayaks the norsaq and hand rolls, he says to sweep out, then down. I can dig up the exact quote tonight. Do you know if the Greenlanders use other variations than those described in the competition list for thse rolls?"
Sure, there are plenty of variations.
For the forward leaning hand/norsaq rolls you do sweep out and then down (your hand roughly follows a question-mark shape). For the layback rolls, I was not taught to push down, at the training camp in Greenland I attended.
You do apply downward pressure so it could be that this subtle point was easily lost in translation/semantics when John talked with his informants.
Again, the danger of pushing your hand/arm violently downward is that if your torso is fully on the aft deck, it cannot rotate. Therefore your sweeping arm will be moving independently of your torso. Without the linkage to your torso you can easily move your arm into a classic dislocation position. Sure you could push downward to a degree without problems but if you do it fast enough, and far enough, you can really do a number on your shoulder.
Greg Stamer
Too Many Years At A Desk Job
That’s my theory. I’m paid to solve problems with my brain. Meanwhile, my body learned to sit, run around an office, and spout a lot of flowery language. It took years to teach my body to relax while somebody else lifted me up and threw me on the floor (Judo). Now I have to teach my body to relax while I’m trapped under water. It will come.
Maybe Greyak has a point about the work ethic though.
Lou
Martial Arts
Heck man, I’m a desk jockey too - also in a largely problem solving role - visualization/structural problems (and have been accused of thinking too much [never too well!] many time). I’m also fatter than you!
Stop making excuses and adding obstacles!
Any martial arts experience should assist - particularly on the mental side, but perhaps Judo’s too aggressive a model? Good against assailants - but the water is not your enemy. You will never beat it - and you need it’s assistance to roll.
Think Aikido. Both Aikido and rolling are balance/harmony oriented activities. Perhaps this bit from Wikipedia can highlight the difference.
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“In Japanese martial arts, the uke (Žó‚¯; pronounced oo-keh) is the person who “receives” a technique.
In Aikido training this means that the uke initiates an attack against his partner (the nage (“Š‚°) or “thrower”, sometimes known instead as tori), who then defends himself with a technique, generally causing the uke to be pinned or thrown. This is called “taking ukemi (Žóg).” In other Japanese martial arts, the term is used differently.”
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It sounds to me like you treat rolling as if the water has attacked you and you are going to throw or pin it! Can’t work. Water is never uke.
I rolling you are alway uke. The water always nage. You may initiate the roll, but the water delivers you back to the surface the same way the nage delivers you to the mat in Aikido.
Resistance only makes it harder to receive the lesson - and increases your risk of frustration and injury. The more frantic your efforts - the more they will work against you.
Never attempt to defeat the Mighty Water Nage! Water never fights - so never loses. Only a fool fights with water. Water is always simply water. It is a master teacher with infinite patience. Let it guide you movements so you both flow together toward a more balanced state.
(Now Sing can come in and show us how Aikido is just fancy dojo BS and kick all our butts! Uh, I mean out roll all of us!)
trapped?
“Now I have to teach my body to relax while I’m trapped under water. It will come.”
Lou, your use of the word TRAPPED is very telling here. You aren’t trapped under water – in fact you generally have to actively hold yourself into many kayaks to roll them without falling out. Practice playing in, around, on, and under your kayak until being upside down in your kayak is not exciting at all and becomes PLAY!
Developing a love for swimming, diving, etc can help greatly.
Greg Stamer
yeah
I caught that “trapped” comment too.
Become one with the water Lou…
Paul
I wanted to thank
everyone for their very informative posts about hand and norsaq rolling. I got a lot out of it.
Paul
well…
AiKiDo is mostly about balanced redirection of the flow.
In real life - fluidly reacting to current conditions while always being balanced ( doesn’t that sound like a nice sculling roll 
)
As a matter of fact, some of elemental moves/techniques resemble paddling quite a bit - torso rotation, arms and body “aware” but not tense.
Aikido & Judo Are Kindred Arts
I cannot speak expertly on Aikido, my Sensei says they are very closely related. Judo is very much about being totally relaxed, working completely with and using only the forces that surround you. This involves getting your body to do things that are ordinarily counter intuitive. I feel that there is much the same between kayaking techniques and Judo techniques.
In Judo, you teach your body to commit to what appears your primal brain to be a life threatening situation with a very relaxed execution of techniques that feel wrong, but are right. In paddling terms, think of the high brace (or roll). The primal brain says to initiate an intense battle with boat and water to get your head up for air. The proper technique is to relax and execute a technique that involves keeping your head down. Physics dictates that the technique will work, while the primal brain disagrees. I have found in Judo that with repetition, the primal brain learns that the technique is in fact the best way, and abandons the “fight or flee” reflex. For me that takes time.
We are actually in agreement.
Lou