Trapped is a feeling
In my case at least. It’s true, if I had spent more time in the water like I did as a kid instead of spending it all behind a desk, I would probably have been rolling a long time ago.
Lou
Indeed that is my goal
It’s not coming easily for me, but I am patient and persistent, and I enjoy the challenge.
Lou
You Got It…
the concept… Now practice and execute. 
sing
Arm motion
After thinking about it a bit, it may be the arm motion you think I have used could be different from the motion I actually use. The downward sweep motion is similar to the arm pull when swimming backstroke with bent elbow and rotation. Sort of a pull from a high brace position to a low brace. Anyway, I should see Turner this weekend and I’ll see if he can take a quick look.
Ralph
it counts
if you can get to a paddle float and roll up before you suffocate or drown in a capsize. simply said…
the intent is and was
to teach my mind the progression of underwater layback with an agressive hip snap all without having to come out of the boat 40 times. I had no idea of any kind of greenland maneuver.
I am not succeeding very well and I do not want to blame equipment buuuuut I will say this. As much as I love my Tempest 170, it does not lend itself well to laybacks for me…just to tall a back deck. Not saying it can’t be done but just that my technique is going to have to be near perfect for me to accomplish this. but I will get there…practice and execute!
I can just imagine what will happen when I get a boat with a really low back deck!
Paul
In The 165
ya gotta scoot the butt forward some. Helps a lot. I also found that my cheap, longer pfd offers more backal protection from the coaming than my high dollar pfd. (excuse the medical terminology).
sometimes it is the equipment…
Up until about 3 months ago, I couldn’t hand roll a sea kayak to save my life. I had a bombproof whitewater playboat hand roll and really had trouble transferring it to my sea kayaks. Although my technique and form were solid, the timing of my hipsnap and body motion was more explosive and quick to deal with the playboat’s planing hull rather than a smooth and continuous knee drive which works better for sea kayaks. I discovered that in addition to that, my sprayskirt inhibited my body motion preventing me from hand rolling. I put on a tuilik and took off my PFD and I could hand roll any sea kayak in sight! That little bit of flexibility made all the difference. Now that my form is a bit more dialed in, I can hand roll most boats without a tuilik, with a PFD, and without a masik although it is a bit tougher. I highly recommend working on the handroll in whitewater boat or wait for you SOF qajaq. It really is quite difficult to use a touring sea kayak to learn to hand roll. The Tempest is a good roller but it’s not the best boat to learn hand rolls in.
I’ll get there
but I suspect it will be after I get an SOF. Hopefully before Christmas!
paul
Dude!
– Last Updated: Nov-19-05 7:02 AM EST –
You have a "bombproof" hand roll for ww paddling? I've see folks at playholes using the hand paddles but not bare hands... Young jedi, you are!
I have a consistent hand roll with my white water boat and surf boat in practice but come to realize that hand rolling has limited utility in rough water. You can come back up, but you're still in doo-doo without a paddle to brace, to paddle and get out of trouble, etc. At a certain point, you'll go over again, and again. Then you'll tire and have to swim.
Hand rolling is great way to train the body more but I don't believe it to have much utility except maybe in a touring situation. And even then, you have better have a back-up paddle (assuming you lost the primary in a capsize). However, if I have a backup paddle, I would rather access that and come back up ready for the stuff that tossed me over in the first place.
sing
well… how about pretty good than?
– Last Updated: Nov-19-05 10:14 AM EST –
:) bombproof is a pretty strong term. Although my hand roll is quicker and as reliable as my paddle roll, I obviously won't be able to fight out of a sticky hole without a paddle (unless I knew how to throw clean cartwheels to escape). Most likely I would simply roll until exhaustion and swim. Hand rolling has prooved useful a couple times on the river already. I've had the paddle stripped away from me as well as broken a paddle. Each time swimming didn't even cross my mind as I simply hand rolled up. Luckily I was running pool drops or I was near an eddy each time as I'm not sure what I would have done if I was in the middle of a long continuous rapid. I guess I would have hoped to hand steer into some sort of eddy and pull out my spare hand paddles to finish the run.
sorta kinda did a hand roll?
I don’t think this is valid but what I did was put my feet past the foot braces and scooted as far forward as possible and fell over and drove the hip as hard as I could while pushing down with my left hand and throwing the right one over. It sort of worked. well I guess it worked as I was up but boy did it feel like cheating almost as I was so far into the boat that I felt my toes touching the bulkhead. Only did it once and can tell that with a low low back deck this will be a lot easier.
skinned my thigh pretty good in the process too…
I guess it is a start anyway.
(norsaq would probably have been easier…hmmmm)
Paul
If you build it…
… they will come.
At least I hope so. Only hope I have of keeping up with you! Haven’t even tried a hand roll. Do have Norsaq, so I guess I should try it. Haven’t been out in a while.
Deck pegged and lashed today. Masik and knee brace carved and ready to attach (but may wait 'till later to quadruple check position/fit). Next - stems & breast hooks…
now that counts!
Congrats! Yes when I first started I scooted as far in as I could and my feet were on the bulkhead as well. Heck even now I typically scoot in a little when hand rolling to the back deck (and scoot back when hand rolling to the fore deck) as it helps clear the rear coaming. If I’m getting into someones kayak to try out and I don’t have my foam masik with me, I’ll still do the extreme scoot to give me the best chance of hitting the hand roll. Keep it up and congrats again on the great progress!
bulkhead placement
I suppose this will get easier over time but I just realized that if I put in the bulkhead insert that I was planning to replace the foot pegs, I will not have the option to scoot forward anymore and this will essentially kill my attempt to layback completely for hand rolling or norsaq rolling.
Ideas? (obvious one is to not glue in the new bulkhead and take it out for rolling practice but this would have no practical applications as I would need the hand roll (and the scoot) when I lost my paddle?)
Paul
Just pad the sides
I just put closed cell foam on the right and left sides of the bulk head and leave the middle unpadded so I can scoot my feet forward.
The best of both worlds.
Bert
I don’t know…
That just makes too much sense…
Paul
Appears safe…
Turner took a look athmy back then down sweep and said it didn’t look like the shoulder was at risk, just I wouldn’t get any point for it (I knew that). He also had me slide even further forward until my stomach was against the front of the coaming and the rolls became easier.
Ralph
hold off on the roll for a bit
shins and thighs too banged up…trying too hard…not flowing…
bah!
Paul