I spent the last couple of years working part-time for a major retailer (no names, but they’re based out of Maine, although my store wasn’t in ME) while my wife went back to grad school. We sold quite a few Wilderness Systems rec kayaks, and more than once the bow flotation (gray thing!) was very loose, or not attached at all. As essentially the only one in the store with any boating experience, they believed me when I insisted they needed to be reattached. I can very easily see how someone not familiar with kayaks would think it didn’t belong, and indeed witnessed just that, and we were supposedly a reputable outdoor goods retailer!
ptickner
I think you nailed the usual situation in bigger stores, I see it around here A big box store store often has a person - as in one - who has knowledge in a specialty area. But unless they give that person an apartment in the store, there is not full coverage. Those of us who understand an area often assume more knowledge exists than does
One of my still fave stories - happily these folks walked into a small store with a knowledgeable owner. They were looking for a kayak, newbies One of them started trying to get into a WW boat and figuring out how to hook their legs/feet around the support pillar They thought it might be there to help them stay in
Similar experience as Ptickner working at an EMS in Massachusetts after moving back to the east coast. Sold a ton of the terrible Perception boats with the open cell foam blocks about the size of a cereal box held in with a sheet rock screw, if that. They fell out all the time, and after the first season of working there, I would just chuck them if I couldn’t immediately find the boat it belonged in. And I gave up trying to persuade people to purchase flotation bags, would look at me like I had two heads, while they went in search of a phone case and the cheapest paddle we had. I would feel victorious if I could sell one or two long boats a season. In some ways the paddle boards are superior in that you can’t comprise their buoyancy without a catastrophic undertaking.
I also seriously doubt an employee would go out of their way to modify a boat like that. My guess is that the “expert” know it all customers directed them to remove something that looked like packing materials. But as others have said, that cereal box size of foam would have done almost nothing in the ways of positive buoyancy.
Stopped at local sporting goods store to buy some shock cord this afternoon. Their entrance hall is filled with SINKS, SOTs and SUPs (no Pelicans, Perceptions, Sun Dolphins, etc.) Always curious. I walked through the display looking into the cockpits. That patch of foam in the photo is so small, I guess it could be mistaken for packing material. BTW, the price tag on that 12.5 ft kayak is $1,100.
Rookie, that looks more like collapse prevention, rather than flotation.
Yanoer, when it gets to boats this crappy it doesn’t matter what it officially is. They don’t put anything useful for serious conditions in these POS boats.
That is what should matter, all the bad judgement. Unfortunately the presence or lack of a useless piece of foam will likely matter more.
Celia, those boats aren’t made for serious conditions and shouldn’t be used for such or marketed for such use.
They are just as safe, or safer, as the average unbagged touring solo canoe in serious conditions, which isn’t very safe.
The Grey Thing, for green things,
loss leaders coincide.
No sense, few cents, ensue repents,
with sales to feeble minds,
Or is this feeble fable?
Not all cards laid on table.
Some boldly go when dealer shows
not ample warning label
And thus some take their sport,
in tragedy to tort,
hoping hurricanes can’t alone explain
manufactured danger to the court.
(As Dear Brutus faults stars out of sort,
and grey matter sinks in retort.)
Yanoer, that was what I said. What does it matter to correct Rookie about whether it was packing or flotation or anything else in a boat that should not be where flotation matters to start with?
I wouldn’t say rec kayaks with no added flotation are safer than an unbagged touring canoe on a river like this, because a decent paddler could be virtually assured of a clean run though those rapids in a canoe, and virtually assured of failure regardless of paddling skill in an un-skirted rec kayak, because even if both boats are open, a canoe can run far larger waves without swamping. The fact that both boats require great effort to tow to shore once swamped is not the end of the story, and on top of that, it shouldn’t be forgotten that at least the unbagged canoe will still float horizontally when swamped, whereas the rec kayak will end up being vertical, and even that makes a quite a difference.
So again, it’s safe to say that these were just about the worst possible boats (worst class of boat) that could have been chosen for this run.
Names tells it all “Dicks”
Ha!!
@Celia said:
Thanks Willowleaf. Unfortunately I can see this coming around to the sane absurdity as the case in NY, where an immigrant woman was accused of purposely drowning her fiance by opening up the drain plug. I don’t recall if anyone ever established how and when the drain plug was opened, maybe even if it was while the guy was in the boat. But that went on and on regardless of the fundamental problem being in the wrong boat in chilly water with questionable swimming abilities/options.
Good timing to mention that incident. There’s a six-part “Crime Watch Documentary” about that case in the recent articles section here.
https://paddling.com/learn/the-kayak-killer-crime-watch-daily-documentary/
Yanoer, that photo is of a Hurricane kayak, probably the Santee Sport, a little rec boat but a well-made one a step above the usual discount store dishpan crap. Since it is superlight (36 pounds of ABS thermo-formed plastic) it needs that pillar to support the bow deck (people do tend to sit on them when they are ashore). It has a stern bulkhead. The overly large cockpit and small bow space would make a float bag problematic. Hurricane is pretty clear on the limitations of their rec models, to their credit. I personally would not spend a grand on such a squat little rec boat, but if somebody wanted a pond lily-dipper that was light and nicely finished I’d rate it up there near the smaller Eddylines.
I’m still haunted occasionally by an incident that occurred when I was in outfitter sales at the only real mountaineering and climbing shop in my city, 40 years ago. Three yahoos came in to get an odd assortment of miscellaneous gear and in the process of drawing them out about the adventure they were planning I found out they were all former military (with no Alpine experience) who were planning to travel to Peru to climb Huascaran, a 22,000 foot glaciated peak in the Andes, which, coincidentally, my boyfriend had just climbed the year before, so I was well aware that it was a serious and technical mountain.
But these guys were planning to “climb” it wearing military surplus jungle boots and sleeping in poncho liners (the kind used in tropical combat zones.) The gear they were buying was barely what one would need for a Summer backpacking trip in the Adirondacks. They did have rock climbing experience and a little winter camping locally but seemed completely oblivious about high mountain conditions. When I expressed my discomfort in their level of preparation they seemed to have the “we’re tough guys, we can do anything” attitude.
I actually called the store owner (we were both experienced alpine climbers and instructors) and asked what I should do and he said I should try to talk them into getting a reasonable kit. I did manage get them to buy decent sleeping bags and actual mountaineering boots, as well as a 10 mm perlon climbing rope. They already had climbing harnesses and knew basic rope handling and belaying but had not used the gear, ever, for glacier travel. Also talked them into a tent and a white gas stove. Strongly recommended that they hire a guide for the climb and also take at least an intro course on mountaineering here or in Peru before attempting the climb.
Upshot was that they got down to the Andes a month later,. tried the climb without a guide and apparently got almost to the summit. Other climbers found a loose crampon (ice spikes for boots) and gloves that one of them had apparently taken off to fix the loose device. Nearby was an ice axes. The three men were below that, dead and still tied together where they had all swept over the edge of the ridge. I was horrified when I heard the news.
I could not help but wonder that if I had not persuaded them to buy that gear they would have been so miserably under-equipped the first few days there that they would never have made it up to where they died, likely of inexperience combined with hypoxia. But perhaps I would have felt worse if they died of exposure from using the crappy gear that they were planning to take before I managed to outfit them. Often a dilemma in that business.
@willowleaf said:
I personally would not spend a grand on such a squat little rec boat, but if somebody wanted a pond lily-dipper that was light and nicely finished I’d rate it up there near the smaller Eddylines.
Every kayak Eddyline makes has two sealed bulkheads, even their tiny ten-foot Sky. I laud them for that.
Willowleaf, there was nothing you could have told these guy sthat would have gotten in front of their macho.
Celia, thanks for reminding me of that. Those were not the only folks familiar to me who have been lost over the years to wilderness hubris.
The whole time I have been involved with outdoor sports, the “type” that I most dread encountering, whether on a group trip or in a gear sale situation, is the macho ex-military guy. While many (even most) ex-military are outstanding in terms of mental and physical fitness and are great to have on any challenging outing, there is that one sub-group that thinks that they can bluff their way through anything and arrogantly resist any attempt to advise or instruct them. Always makes me wonder how they actually did in their service (or even if they are lying about it) since following orders and using good judgement would seem to be prime characteristics of a good soldier/sailor/pilot/marine. Not only do these guys (and in my experience, at least, it has all been guys) not listen, but they often try to undermine the designated trip leader’s authority with other group members. They are more likely to get into trouble on trips than other participants. Worse yet, when things do start to go south they are the most likely to freak out and have to be rescued. Their bravado tends to collapse when the sh*t gets real. They are quick to try to blame others for any difficulties (like the hapless kayakers who have filed that suit against Dick’s) and then exaggerate their “injuries” or distress so that others have to bail them out. Pretty sure that is an ego-protection strategy.
I’ll never forget when a group of us doing winter climbing practice on Mount Washington in New Hampshire came upon a solo skier in downhill gear above the treeline in Huntingdon Ravine. When we expressed concern about his safety he bragged that he was a “former Navy SEAL” and was fully aware of what he was doing. Hours later, as we were heading down from the summit in an ice storm that had blown in, we encountered him again, this time whimpering with fear and incipient hypothermia above the precipitous headwall, lost and missing one of his poles. We had planned to backtrack our original route and had allowed plenty of time for it. But since we had to stop and try to warm this guy up and help him get down we lost over an hour and with the deteriorating conditions and approach of dusk we realized we were going to have to rappel down to the slopes below to shorten the trip. This was long before cell phones, so rescues had to be done by whoever was handy to an incident. By the time we got the ropes rigged the purported “SEAL” was a blubbering and uncooperative mess and we could not coax him to step over the edge. We literally had to tie him up like a mummy and lower him down the slope, which wasted so much more time that we descended in darkness (fortunately by then the storm had abated and the stars were out, but everything, including our clothes and gear, was coated with a veneer of ice.) Once we got to the valley floor two of our group had to flank the skier as we made our way back to the lodge, since the trail was iced over and we had crampons and he was wearing downhill ski boots. One of our party even generously carried the guy’s skis strapped to his summit pack. When we got to the lodge, he seemed to have miraculously recovered his faculties and took his skis, telling us he was going to get some clothes to change into from his car and “be right back” (we presumed maybe he would buy us all a beer in gratitude.) Instead, he got in his car and drove off.
Oh well. At least we got an unexpected rescue practice out of that one and it didn’t appreciably ruin our outing. But there have been other trips over the years where my own party ended up having to abandon our well-structured and properly equipped plans to bail out idiots in the woods that crossed our paths. And the “macho men” have always been the ones in the worst straits and who were the least cooperative and least grateful for assistance.
Willowleaf - Wow you sure get around and have had amazing life experiences!
My question raised by the incident in the law suit is: Do these low price rec boats do more good for paddling sports by introducing people to paddling, or more harm by endangering people who have no clue and buy from those with similar inexperience?