Don't remove gray thing. And don't paddle a rec boat on a class II river

Paddlers' Place
#41

Thanks, Blackthumb. Some of my friends have told me that I should write a book relating all my varied life experiences (like working on archaeology digs, being an exotic dancer and singing backup in a rock band to support myself during college, the career as a construction electrician, gutting and remodeling my old houses on my own, dabbling in spelunking, mountaineering and eventually kayaking, etc.)

Not ever having had a husband or kids left a lot of time for doing my own thing(s). There are tradeoffs to that, some of them quite negative.

But if I had to write it all down I wouldn’t have enough time to keep doing more of it. So I’ll wait until I am too decrepit to do anything else before penning the autobiography (which, quite honestly, would probably be as tedious to read as to write – sharing short incidents is more my preference and tries nobody’s patience.)

#42

I would think that on the whole, it’s a positive thing. “We” at P.com (I use quotes because there are really only a handful here who dedicated themselves to this cause) go to great lengths to dissuade folks from buying rec kayaks, but overall the problems resulting from their use seem minuscule to me. There must be thousands of rec kayaks in frequent or relatively frequent use in the town where I live and the immediate vicinity, and in the last 20 years or so I don’t recall an incident of any kind (that doesn’t mean there hasn’t been one, of course, but they must be rare). Before there were rec kayaks, there were canoes (does anybody remember those things?), which capsize far more easily and once capsized are no picnic to handle either, and most canoes have always been sold by non-experts. Yet somehow, canoes remain virtually immune from the harsh criticism on this site that’s routinely aimed at rec kayaks. I think that getting people out paddling is a good thing, overall, and those that end up taking it seriously will learn about safety and those who don’t, won’t.

#43

Harry
Maine Island Trail faced the same kind of dilemma with the pressure to add way downeast, Bay of Fundy area, to their published resources. The area is extremely risky and adding info on launch sites etc was long resisted because it might encourage poorly prepared paddlers.

They finally decided that people were going anyway, and are going to add way downeast resources and cautions in hopes it might make some people safer.

Will have to see how that works out. But it is a similar issue to the explosion of rec boats.

#44

Hundreds of thousands of rec kayaks have been sold. The number of drownings resulting from the use of rec kayaks on inappropriate waters has to be minuscule compared to the number out there. I know quite a few people who own rec kayaks who are perfectly happy with them and use them appropriately.

I strongly suspect that those who suffer death or injury as a result of venturing out onto the open ocean or onto whitewater in a rec kayak are so ill-informed or have such poor judgement that they likely would have gotten into trouble if they had been in a sea kayak or whitewater kayak instead.

#45

Pblanc
Yup. Look at how many are due to being under dressed for the water or very questionable swimmers.
The risk with rec boats is that they leave people feeling they can stay upright easily, when the same person might not get more than 50 feet without feeling terribly insecure and or trappedi in a skinny boat.

There is an argument that a boat feeling scarey can be a good thing.

IMO people, especially younger guys, who really disregard risk will ultimately find a way to get into trouble. Per willowleafs experiences. Sometimes they pay for it, more often they get with it and we never hear.

#46

@celia Speaking of young guys immune to risk, a mere 5 or so ago I regularly canoed at ice out, along, along the southern part of the rum river in Minnesota. It was normalized by the group I paddled with and learned from; For the most part they were expert canoers and took relatively few precautions other than a change of clothes in a dry bag. As such, being in my mid 20s I had a relatively casual attitude to cold water. I did wear a pfd but had splash gear and dry clothes at best.

I remember one time, probably the closest I’ve ever come to serious peril, where I was approaching a small island at a bend in the river about 5 miles upstream where we would rest for a few minutes turn around, in my Crozier J200 racing canoe. Where the current met after the island, I leaned the boat to show its butt to the oncoming current as the current was rather strong, which worked quite well until I hit the back eddy. With the wings on a racing boat like that, the downside wing was grabbed strongly by the back current and sent me towards a nearly assured capsize. Luckily I had 2 things that saved me from a potentially life threatening situation: 1, I lowered the seat 2.5”, which added loads of stability to an otherwise unruly boat and turned the moment of stability loss from a cliff to a steep hill, and 2, in warm water I practiced the hell out of bracing the summer before, getting water over the gunwale and saving myself (and sometimes not). This developed a solid, instinctual brace. In that moment I produced one of my greatest braces of all time, keeping me upright, but not by much. Had I flipped I was probably in for a 1-3 minute swim in 35* water needing to go only about 150’ to shore and make it into the nearby neighborhood and ask a stranger to use their house to warm up and change, but after more experience I cold water, I know it would have been quite perilous.

It was enough to scare the hell out of me, knowing how lucky I was that everything worked out, and left a lasting impression on me in regards to cold water preparation. Since then, particularly moving to CT on Long Island sound, forced me to get a dry suit and take cold water as seriously as it should be.

I twice capsized in the sound in my J200 both in nearly the same spot about 200 yards from shore in the middle of winter (because that’s when the good waves are rolling!) resulting in a 10 minute swim back to shore, but other than being out of breath, slightly bruising my pride, and once loosing a shoe, I was fine. It’s still scary to swim unexpectedly, but taking a moment to compose yourself, and knowing you’re fine for quite a while in the water was a good learning experience instead of dangerous.

Now in my mid 30s, I’d like to think I’ve learned a thing or two with relatively little harm to myself, but I have been lucky, not smart, on more than one occasion. Certainly, a close brush with disaster is a quick teacher. Unfortunately not everyone is lucky and gets to learn from their mistake. I am moving to costal California in 2 weeks and will have to reset my paddling skill assessment for a different set of waters. Now I will have to resist the urge to go out on big days in my surfski until I learn the area and understand what I don’t yet know, as the first stage of Conscious Competence is the most dangerous. Luckily there is a good paddling group in the Area that can show me along the way.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_competence

#47

I agree that overall the surge in rec boats is a good thing. I remember reading something in aca literature that said “people view boats (canoes and kayaks) as simple craft and thus believe paddling itself is a simple endeavor.” When that is reinforced by advertising (right off the Dick’s website) that states an open cockpit boat “glides easily even in choppy conditions” and you have an uninformed sales staff then you are setting folks up for failure.

Like I said before, I ain’t feelin’ a bit sorry for the manufacturer, the retailer, or the participants. The boats could be better made (but would be slightly more expensive), They could seal the back bulkhead, instead of providing a dinky dry hatch, often that is sole source of flotation in rec boats. They could use close cell materials and extend the wall support. The marketing could be more accurate, the sales staff better trained, Overall I’ve seen an improvement in the build quality of rec boats since they first came out but still many boats lacking basic support or sufficient flotation. The retailer could at least encourage folks to pair the purchase of a boat with cheap beach balls or inflatable monkees to stuff in the rear of the boat.

I’ve seen my share of stupid stuff- people trying to rec boat the new river gorge or thinking that they were gonna paddle class II with me and not wear a pfd but that’s extra special stupidity, Kind of like blamin’ the gray thing for your troubles. Then again my own lightbulb isn’t always burnin’ to bright. Difference is I admit my own stupidity (conscience incompetence) and ain’t suein’ anybody else over it. This is a good thread, very relevant to where I live. The New, Gauley, Meadow ain’t exactly rec boat paradise but occasionally we get some folks that think it is. I say the judge/jury should fine the manufacturer, retailer, and participants and give the money to the aca. Maybe then the maker will up the build quality rather than chasing the almighty dollar, the retailer will market the product responsibly, and train their sales staff, and the unconscious incompetent will figure out they’re morons after they pay a fine for wastin’ everybody’s time.

#48

I always wear my PFD when paddling. Just because, I have taken it off and put it on while swimming (In a safe area) to see how hard it is. When I need it, I need it on. Seeing people with them stowed in the boat, reminds me of other servicemen in 'Nam with their flack jackets on the seat beside them in the truck. In my old age, I have lost my feeling of immortality. :slight_smile:

#49

I happened to go to Dick’s yesterday, a place I don’t normally frequent (needed ripstop repair tape for some gear). Took a jaunt through their kayak department to see the newly notorious OT Trip kayaks foam “white thing”. It’s barely the size and shape of a carton of cigarettes. Wouldn’t be enough “buoyancy” to float a chihuahua – clearly just a prop for the flimsy deck shell. A stiff kick would probably dislodge it. Did notice the Trip has a stern bulkhead but it’s clumsily glued foam – I noticed users on review sites for the model report that the hatch “leaks” and I’m not surprised. It might slow a full swamping but not for long.

I think all the the defense attorney needs to do is have one of the 50 pound kayaks in the courtroom and hold up the tiny “white thing” that was removed to prove how bogus the claims are. But one never knows what inexpert jury panels will do.

#50

I have capsized in ice-melt flood waters in a tee shirt and jeans, fallen out of a raft in big enough white water, been thrown back unceremoniously by ocean surf, broken toes body surfing, nearly collapsed from heat and dehydration, but the closest I came to real danger was last night in the bathroom while trying on a dry top that was a size too small. The neck gasket made me dizzy and taking the thing off I got hung up and it almost suffocated me. The point is that sometimes it is the most innocent thing that causes real danger. The most innocent moment of decision that sends us to bad situations. Plenty of rec boats out there. I have one. It actually, with float bag, makes a fine surf boat. But a rookie decision could put you in a bad situation quickly. Most of us survivors make it out and learn from it.

#51

@willowleaf said:… When we expressed concern about his safety he bragged that he was a “former Navy SEAL” and was fully aware of what he was doing. …

Sure…It’s been my experience that the real steely eyed skilled experienced ones don’t talk about it. The fringe hangers on are the ones that do the bragging.

#52

@Overstreet said:
I have capsized in ice-melt flood waters in a tee shirt and jeans, fallen out of a raft in big enough white water, been thrown back unceremoniously by ocean surf, broken toes body surfing, nearly collapsed from heat and dehydration, but the closest I came to real danger was last night in the bathroom while trying on a dry top that was a size too small. The neck gasket made me dizzy and taking the thing off I got hung up and it almost suffocated me. The point is that sometimes it is the most innocent thing that causes real danger. The most innocent moment of decision that sends us to bad situations. Plenty of rec boats out there. I have one. It actually, with float bag, makes a fine surf boat. But a rookie decision could put you in a bad situation quickly. Most of us survivors make it out and learn from it.

I had the same experience. My wife had to help me pull the jacket off.

#53

Thinking back, it has often been the really quiet and reserved folks, even ones who confessed to being neophytes on trips, who ended up really being invaluable partners in crisis situations on trips where things went awry. We had a guy in our beginning winter mountaineering school years ago who merely told us he had “moderate backpacking experience”. He took all of our advice on getting his gear and was a good student and kept up well with all the instruction during the course. On one of the final challenging outings we had a serious incident where one of the assistant instructors took ill and was functionally incapacitated and unresponsive when we were a day’s march away from help in deep snow (pre-cell phone or GPS). The quiet new student stepped up and diagnosed and treated the person (who was having a diabetic crisis). Turned out he had been a combat medic for two tours with the Airborne Rangers in Viet Nam and was in his second year of medical school! He had never mentioned this in all of the time he had been in the class. On the other hand, the instructor had not informed any of us of his chronic condition – he was fortunate the quiet dude was on hand to figure out what was happening.

#54

@Overstreet said: Most of us survivors make it out and learn from it.<

Yes, we do. And we don’t try to force blame onto others for our own bad choices, which is the main point here.

#55

I’ve had dumb luck myself. My very first experience of whitewater was in my mid-20’s while “accidentally” doing a 7 hour descent of the class V Cheat River Gorge in and two-man ww raft which the bottom blew out of about 2 hours into the trip. I was wearing old sneakers, cut off jeans, a tee shirt, my brother’s old hockey helmet and a “Mae West” PFD from the club livery. I went through one set of rapids (Big Nasty) trapped under the raft when I got tangled in the paddle safety lines (god knows why we tied paddles to the rafts in those days). Went over the Upper Coliseum drop alone when my paddling partner got spit out, with my thighs and arms in a death grip around the remaining perimeter ring of the trashed raft. I cycled up to the surface of the hydraulic (Cyclotron) several times before it spit me out. Just due to stupid tenacity I was the only paddler that day to stay in my craft over that section except for my one buddy in a kayak who shot into the pool and rescued my sorry ass after the hole regurgitated me.

What had happened was that we were all supposed to do a 4 hour “beginner” class 3 float on the Yough the day after our annual club picnic. But at some point that morning, apparently while I was taking a shower at the campground, somebody decided that there were not any “beginners” in the group they should launch onto the Cheat instead. I just climbed into the shuttle vehicle oblivious to the change in game plan. It wasn’t until after out party of 8 kayaks and 5 rafts (two 6-man and 3 tandems) was heading downstream to the first set of rapids that my kayaker friend, George, paddled alongside and expressed surprise that I was experienced enough for the trip. It was only then that I learned I was not on the Yough. George did his best to keep an eye on me during the trip and coached me valiantly en route but I got thrashed pretty badly. It was sheer grit that got me through. My co-paddler on the raft was a space cadet and virtually useless – in retrospect they should have swapped me onto one of the 6-man rafts.

At one point I just figured I was going to die during the trip but was determined that I would fight that inevitability as long as I could. Anyone familiar with the canyon knows you can’t walk out of it.

But I survived with no more than a badly bruised knee (that gave me trouble on long hikes for a year or two but was then fine) as well as a serious aversion for anything above class 2.

#56

ahhh gotta respect the cheat at high water, big big holes- personally I haven’t tangled with it many years (my invincible 20s) Learning to think for yourself, figuring out which paddling friends are clueless (but make good probes) and which ones have good judgement is valuable. Understanding water levels helps if you want to paddle ww into old age. You can control the situation or it can control you. Some “adventures” are one and done for good reason. Call all that stuff situational awareness…and even if you are using good judgement, expect the unexpected.

.Complacency can also be an enemy.

I’m leaving in a half hour to boat with some folks. Several I haven’t met, I’m going on a creek/river I haven’t done, flash flood warnings in the area, gauges fluctuating. Bottom line you gotta stay in control- even if that means leavin’ the boat on the car or hiking off/out. Communicating your needs, and making your own decisions especially at the put in is an undervalued skill. Best compliment I’ve ever gotten is “you grow your own boaters”. Meaning I’ve got no problem hanging with beginners, eventually they get better, and a mutual trust is built, and eventually a few turn into regular paddlin’ buds. They can bring a physicality I no longer have. Primary goal is always the same: come back alive.