likewise…
you sure do not want to spend a cold night in a soaked synthetic bag either.
Down for kayak-camping
I had to buy a down bag simply to fit it inside my kayak. Even with a compression sack, I could not get my equivalent-temperature synthetic bag to fit inside. Therefore that synthetic bag has been switched over to “car camping” use where stuff volume does not matter. (Actually, it is unused because I already had another synthetic bag that I use for car camping; well, now I have a “reserve” car-camping bag, I guess.)
Not only did the down bag compress well, it did so with tremendous ease, unlike the synthetic bag where I was literally standing on top of the compression sack and STILL couldn’t get it small enough.
What surprised me was how the down bag felt drier in use–it must breathe a little better than synthetics.
Loft loss varies depending on the synthetic in question and how it is stored.
I always figure the cold temp ratings are 15 degrees too optimistic, so I buy a bag rated to 10 deg. for kayak camping use. That makes it good down to 25 deg, which is about as low as our kayak camping season goes.
would you buy a tent that does not last?
– Last Updated: Feb-26-09 1:58 PM EST –
imo, main reason for down - why purchase something that has a short to unknown useful life. Synthetics including the constant new ones seem to lose their loft within a short period per reviews.
Pay for it once - down - it will last your lifetime.
Backpacker Magazine just
published their annual gear guide. Lots of bags in there with reviews.
Dogmaticus
Down with that?
Down:
-lower weight for same insulation value
-much lower bulk
-will have a much longer lifetime, especially if cared for and get high quality down (700 or greater)
-do purchase a down bag with a waterproof breathable shell–in particular the Mountain Hardwear shells have almost no threads on the exterior due to using welding technology for the interior baffles
-my experience with down is that it is more comfortable over a wider range of temperatures than synthetic
Good luck.
lots of options out there
for down or synthetic. I’m in agreement with the poster who mentioned that you don’t want to spend a night in a wet bag, regardless what its made of! True, down takes a lot longer to dry out than synthetic, but the reality is that you can’t afford to let your bag get wet, period. Sea to Summit has eVac dry compression sacks - event panels let you get as much air out as you can (i have one, it rules!) with the seam taped bag. No air inside = no water inside. Drop it in a dry bag with the rest of your clothes or soft stuff, and you’re doubly safe. I swore by synthetics for a long time, but a few nights in a really comfy down bag changed my mind for sure. FWIW, I’ve always liked the Big Agnes system (air core mattresses are awesome)- lots of room for “active” sleepers or the bigger folks out there.
That’s another thing about down - you don’t need a tight mummy bag with down - it drapes better and distributes warmth better, so you can sleep with less claustrophobia. I’ve been using a Mountain Hardwear Spectre SL 800 bag lately - unbelievable how small that packs down to, and the SL is a waterproof/breathable laminate that keeps any condensation moisture out of the bag, too.
Long answer
First, a disclaimer.
My primary job is a buyer for an online retailer of high end outdoor specialty products.
So, I am biased.
I have also worked in this industry for 28 years.
1)Hypothetically, down can significantly outlast any synthetic. But heavy use is not sleeping in it, it is compressing the bag. This means that, in typical use, a synthetic bag can last a very, very long time. Typical use of about two weeks a year is not much. Synthetic will live as long as down. If improperly stored (in the stuff sack), then down will hugely outlast synthetic. I always thought it funny that nearly all down bag manufacturers include a storage sack, but rarely for synthetic. Important for both types, doubly so for synthetic.
A guides use will make a down bag cheap. Used nearly every day, a synthetic bag will be lumpy and thin in as little time as a year. Five years ago I gave away a down bag I bought in 1975, and I nearly lived in it every winter for 5 years. It was no longer 8.5 inches of loft, it was about…8.
2)The concern about getting a bag soaking wet can be a red herring. A person’s body heat can dry out a saturated (but wrung out)synthetic bag, and it is true that a saturated down bag is worthless. IMO, saturating a sleeping bag when outdoors…is an act of natural selection. I just cannot imagine how it could happen, outside of complete ignorance.
What is rarely noted, is that a down bag can absorb atmospheric moisture. In really high humidity, a down bag can lose a little loft every day, unless there is a chance to dry it out. The worst situations I have been in is sea kayaking in BC during nonstop rain, tropical jungle, but by far the worst is snow caves.
In these situations, a barrier can be valuable, such as a Gore windstopper shell, or an aftermarket bivy bag (my fav is a super light and compact eVent bag).
3)While there is a european test standard, there is absolutely no universal standard in warmth ratings. Most manufacturers start with data from army testing (decades old), and do their own interpretation. The only verifiable info is volume, clo value, and loft. Volume is a biggy- get a bag too big, and it is like a small baseboard heater (your body) in a large room. Snug is efficient, if you can stand it. Clo value is the insulation efficiency. For years, down was superior, but that difference is getting really small. So small, that, manufacturer claims aside, there just isn’t a big diff in high end fills. Keep in mind that what is really insulating you is non-moving air. Air does not transmit heat very well (variable with humidity, very humid air holds more heat than dry air), and insulation is just trying to hold air from moving around. The very complex micro structure of down used to be clearly superior, modern synthetics are getting close.
Loft is the biggy. Simply put, thickness is equal to warmth. If the bag volumes are the same, the thicker bag will be warmer. This is the place where bag makers make the biggest distinctions, within their lines (one maker’s claim are not always comparable to anothers).
Story here- many years ago, a customer complained because a bag we carried was rated to 15above, with 6" of loft. A competitor had a cheaper bag, rated to 20below. Also 6" loft. She thought we were the ones ripping her off!!! Lesson- don’t compare warmth rating of makers, compare loft and bag size.
4) A clear and demonstrable difference is packing size. Some new synthetics are vastly improved, but down is still way ahead in packability.
5) Down type is rated by fill power. For years, the industry standard was 550. Meaning that one ounce of down would occupy 550 cubic inches. What makes higher fill power is a combination of down maturity (higher quality down is simply fluffier), but often of greater difference is the cleaning and separation process. All down has some non-down contaminants, mostly feathers, but sometimes other stuff…which can fall under “don’t ask, don’t tell”. There is growing opinion that some people who think they are allergic to down may not be- they react to the organic contaminants (my wife,who sneezes instantly when her head hits a down/feather pillow, recently had to sleep in one of my 850fill bags. No problem).
Higher fill power means a lighter bag (less fill is needed to create loft), and more compressible. Over time, feathers, with their stiff quills, can escape by poking out of the fabric. Over time, the bag can lose some loft as this happens. Higher fill power bags, with fewer feathers, loses less loft over time. But even 550 fill will only lose about 10% of its loft over years. Warning- ultralight fabrics allows this process to happen quicker, leading some to think the bag is defective. It isn’t; the natural process of feather loss happens quicker.
6) Hard to prove, but there is a lot of opinion out there that down has a wider comfort range. These people,from their experience, believe bags with low temp ratings are different at warm temps, depending on fill. The thought is that down bags “breathe” better, and are less clammy or sweaty. Venting using the zipper can only do so much.
BTW, I am very much in this camp.
Hope this helps.
Karl
Big Agnes pads rock. They are
great. I have an Exped pad that is excellent, also.
Dogmaticus
It did. NM
My Big Agnes …
bag has the same thing. A storage bag about 3 1/2 feet long and about 2 ft wide that I keep it in. Also comes with a compression stuff sack.
I prefer down for colder temps
Wife and I used to do a lot of backpacking, all year round in northern LP and UP of MI. Down is highly superior for weight and packability. I can personally vouch for Feathered Friends and Western Mountaineering. My wife loves her Marmot Col. Marmot can be a good value, since you can often find them on sale vs. FF and WM.
In contrast, we’ve picked up some tropical weight synthetic (primaloft) bags (Marmot and Integral Designs) for warm weather kayak expeditions. These seem like a very reasonable compromise of price, comfort, weight, packability and durability. As mentioned above, we probably spend only 10-14 nights/year in these bags.
If we ever upgrade, I think we’ll go with something like this http://www.nunatakusa.com/site07/arc_products/arc_alpinist_dual.htm
Yes
I have a few bags that are in great condition, but just about flat! I keep them because I figure I might take out the zipper and use the rest as a blanket for home/cottage.
The down lasts a really long time, I am told (and so far has outlasted at least two synthetic bags). Now I can’t speak for all synthetics, but that is my experience.
Fill power
I think an ounce of down fills a certain number of cubic inches. The 700+ stuff is just warmer for the weight than the 550 stuff. The 550 stuff, though, is also durable and warm, just a bit heavier so not as well suited for an ultralight winter bag, for instance.
decided , a down bag it is …
… probaly will be purchasing soon , have to get two … one for me and one for my honey . I’ll make sure they are left and right hand zippers and the same model bags , she moves too much in her sleep , so having single or double bed opt. is good thing … lots of times she ain’t with me anyway .
Thanks for all the great assistance , bunch a fine folks you are …
One last caveat
Sleeping bags do come in sizes… even if its “regular” the girth can vary markedly.
You don’t want too much room (you will be colder) yet you may want freedom of movement.
Look for neck baffles…and drawcords…they really do help.
You really should try the bag on in the store. As there will be two of you this could be entertaining.
good advise , lol …
Fabulous summary, Karl!
Thanks.
I know for down bags that the bag construction is critical for allowing the bag to loft, but keep the down from shifting too much. There are all sorts of designs and claims for baffle design, differential cut, etc., but my understanding is that for any down bag used in colder conditions, you don’t want any direct sewing/connection of the inner and outer shell.
I have two down bags – one a 30+ yr. EMS Minilite (high quality duck down). Very light and compact, but the loft has suffered over the years (use, washing, and I may have torn a baffle or two?), but I still use it for a 3-season bag. Second bag is from LLBean – goose down fill. Very nice. Roomier, warmer, and included a cotton storage bag… I think a nice option for the price.
Backpacked and canoed with down bags. A little care and planning will keep the bag dry… ie, line your stuff sack with a plastic bag (kept my bag dry even in pouring rain mounted on the bottom of an external frame pack).
Bags:
This is my summer kayaking bag:
http://www.altrec.com/mountain-hardwear/spirit-sl-32-degree-sleeping-bag
Great combo of compactness, lightweight and weather resistant–still very important to keep 'em dry, of course.
Feathered Friends will custom make a bag to your body dimensions, which may be the best way to get that optimum weight/warmth ratio. I’ve had one of their custom minus 30 bags for years and I can’t say enough good about it.
I’ve also got a couple of cheaper TNF down bags that have some kind of water resistant shell, but aren’t technically a w/b fabric, that have served quite well–just keep 'em dry, like everything.
Good luck and I hope you enjoy your new bag.
Sizing for smaller people
You don’t say how tall your wife is, but if she’s small, the so-called women’s models will be warmer. I prefer those (they’re about 5’6" long) and they’re not only warmer, but lighter and less bulky, which helps for packing. No more folding the foot section underneath to reduce unoccupied (and therefore cold) space!
The women’s sleeping pads are also a nice way to cut down on unnecessary bulk.
Go With Lower Rating
I arrived late to this thread, but skimmed to see you’ve received all good responses, so I’ll just add in 2 things that may have not been mentioned.
One is that the degree you pick should be very low, much lower than you think you’ll ever camp in. I was told by an REI employee, the bags were rated as if the person inside wore a wool suit.
The second thing is the style. A mummy tends to keep you warmer faster since your body has less space to heat up. I don’t like to be that tightly enclosed, so my choice was a semi-rectangular. An advantage to that one is that it zippers across the bottom so you can use it as a cover if it gets warm to open it all the way. All the mummys I’ve seen zipper only part way down.
My bag came in a long version which I bought so I can sink my head into it, though some bags come with hoods. You could wear a hat, but I also like to keep my face warm on ultra cold days. So there’s my reasoning for what I bought.
-Capri