University of Sea Kayaking
Wayne H is a good guy and solid paddler, but to suggest that just because something is sold by his school/website it’s “legit” is giving way too much credit to USK.
By way of example, ever see the USK video, “Beyond the Cockpit?” Has to be the worst instructional video out there.
interesting what makes the list…
I was surprised to see the Warren Craft listed as a dumb idea…didn’t they just win awards for the design. Don’t they come from a life time of boat building?
Favorite quote…“obsessed with image without realising how stupid they look”…
Couldn’t that be used by the Warren Craft people to describe those afraid of new ideas?
rebreathers come from the world of cave exploration, invented I thought after his friend died exploring a huge cave sysem…
They are starting to market similar things for high avalanche conditions.
I don’t know if it will work out for kayakers but I would think it might be of interest to commerical fishermen. This comes too mind after some guys drowned in The Merrimac after their boat capsized. Rescuers could hear them tapping on the hull till they used up all the air and died.
Beyound the Cockpit as “worst instructional video out there”
now there a unique perspective…
Warren Won Design Award?
If Warren Light Craft won a design award, it was not by an organization familiar with naval architecture.
Maybe Warren Light Craft has discovered a previoulsy unknown loophole that makes their kayaks defy the laws of physics. If so I suspect they would be a contender for a Noble Prize.
Maybe
Certainly being able to relax and not worry about having to swim if your roll doesn’t work is a good thing. However, there is an alternative to the roll-aid. It is called the extended paddle roll. Almost everyone can learn it in 15 minutes or so. It is easy to do and virtually bombproof from the start. You can teach it to yourself with Jay Babina’s video. It is not what I would recommend for the roll you regularly do but it is very good as a back up roll and for giving you confidence you can get up if your regular roll fails.
That extended thing
Once I was able to command the anxiety - again claustrophobia is not rational - I could do the extended paddle roll immediately. When the “obia” was still in as much command as my will, that was way too much paddle to have out to be pulled around by overly tense hands. I was much better off with a less extended form, in fact I maybe should have just started with a hand roll and get the friggin’ paddle out of the way at first.
There was a woman in the last two pool sessions locally who was interesting. She has a perfect boat - an old perception Whip-It - had great flexibility and hip snap right out of the box. And starts out with a tendency to keep her head down without being told. She spent the first session learning the hip snap and when to do it. Last might she came in and rolled with her hand on a paddle-float with no support from me within the first 15 minutes (I had my hand on her PFD strap for safety). About 30 minutes later she went over with the paddle set and did one or two bona fide rolls that way, again with someone physically lightly touching the paddle.
But - she could only do this with the assurance that someone had their hands on her paddle or on her PFD - even if the person was doing absolutely nothing to support her. She tried it on her own once and it was full-scale-climb-up-the-helper response.
Bottom line, she is so challenged by being under the boat right now that she is not able to appreciate that she is rolling. And while she will be rolling handily once she gets acclimated, this is going to take a bit to resolve.
As a Professional Product Designer…
… with a Bachelors in Industrial Design, two decades designing, I can assure you that “Design” awards are more about marketing gimmicks than engineering.
In School, and early on, I played the game and collected a few myself.
Some of the higher profile awards were created to sell magazines (Business Weeks biggest selling issue every year is their “design” issue featuring their award winners).
These kayaks with “wings” are a perfect marketing gimmick to win such awards. They have bright colors and provocative curves - that are masquerading as engineering to bring the story full circle. Catches the eye, then follows up with techy buzz words few will question.
If you can name a product designer, odds are they’ve built their careen on exploiting this sort of thing. They may or may not be good designers, but they are good self promoters.(I’m not judging either - just noting how well it works. See P.T. Barnum for the reasons).
“Design” is first and foremost a marketing tool. this doesn’t prevent good functional design work with sound engineering (which sometimes wins awards too - quietly), but doesn’t encourage or demand it either. I like to see awards given for everything from pure aesthetics to pure function, and everything in between - as long as everyone is clear which is which.
Generally though, an award = fluff for consumption, not proof of concept. In a media centric buyers market, that’s where the demand is.
I suspect the Warren Lightcraft folks are in this to sell more than to revolutionize kayaking as they claim. If so, a reasonably smart ploy in a fairly tidy and well targeted package. What harm if fools like paddling clown shoes? On the other hand, they could really be buying into all their own BS and really think their stuff is all that. I’ve seen it MANY times. The “inventor’s blinders” syndrome. Always a bit sad.
if it is the same people
which i think it is, the guy who runs warren light craft actually builds some very very fast trimarans that are disgustingly light. Course I think the kayaks are a pretty bad idea.
Underhull rudders
have been around for a long time. Sometimes called scudders. The old Dagger Sitka had one along with several others. They were mechanically touchy and not so great in beach landings but they did work better in rough water as they tended to stay in the water.
Interesting take on Beyond the Cockpit
because I find it one of the better instructional videos that USK has put out. It’s on par with NF’s Vol. 3, although a bit funky with DH’s extended paddle work.
I’m sure you know better
than Greg or Oscar! What could those fellows possibly know about paddling!!!
Its not just me
Salty,
You seem to be on an mission to discredit me. Its clear that I do not sugar coat anything. In fact I have kinda taken the gloves off even more on P-Net and am calling like I see them. Are you in the industry? You seem somewhat threatened by someone challenging the paddling marketing machine.
For instance Kevlar is a dumb material for kayak construction unless you bash rocks. Sorry to the thousands of folks who just bought shiny new Kevlar kayaks. I did too 6 years ago and regret it.
But as far as the Epic wagging tail, there have been quite a few knowlegeable folks who have expressed concern for the concept, not just me. I am just the first to stand up and say it, despite the fact that there are couple great paddling heroes behind the idea.
But I don’t buy sneakers just because Michael Jordan’s name is on them either.
You can buy a wagging tail just because it was designed by a olympic level athletes if you want. I would rather have them, or you perhaps, explain the hydrodynamics of the wagging tail.
I suspect the wagging tail was a brainstorm of either Greg or Oscar. Given their strength of personality and the fact that they own the company, nobody else in the company had the balls or the political clout to stand up and say it was a dumb idea.
Besides the wagging tail, I really like the new Epic boats. Well, I would like them even better if they were built in the USA, but you can’t blame shrewd business men for offshoring manufacturing these days.
I do think Epic will eventually drop the wagging tail concept. What do you think Salty? Will they sell more Epics with the wagging tail or a standard rudder?
Not
I think not…and agree with a lot of your stuff. Just not this point. I do not believe Greg or Oscar would risk their products reputation on a gimmick.
Okay Fair Enough
Salty,
I went back to re-read my replies to you. I wanted to edit out anything that may come across as a personal attack. Blogs and message boards are great fun and informative for their diversity of opinions. It can get downright nasty however when there are personal atacks. Actually some folks probably enjoy that part of it too.
So I apologize if I came across as a little too personal on this string and the Kevlar Soaking Water string.
But, we will see about Epic’s wagging tail. I’ve worked in enough design departments to see both the benefits and the possible downfalls of the “designer” with a strong personality. Hey, I am one of those guys and have some very succesfull products out there with my name on the patents. I’ve also had to deal with a couple principals in a company who were rich, powerful, and in a few cases had some darn bad ideas. The company was in Chapter 11 bankruptcy when I joined them because of their bad ideas. Fortunately they reliquished design decisions to someone else (me) and they came out of it quite well, being even richer and more powerful. And I got screwed by the way.
I do not think Epic intends the wagging tail to be a gimmick. I suspect one of the big egos there honestly believes in it and nobody else had the balls to say no.
By the way, that wagging tail concept was not a new invention of Epic. Van Dusen Boatworks, a premier olympic class kayak and rowing shell builder, came out with a wagging tail a few years back. The rules allowed measuring length while excluding an overstern rudder. By extending the wagging tail beyond the length limit and calling it a rudder, they created a waterline length that exceeded the class rules through a loophole in the language. This concept was banned by the ICF relatively quickly.
When I first heard about the wagging tail from Epic, I assumed they were attempting to do the same thing within the USCA rules, creating a waterline length outside the class specs by calling it a rudder. This made some sense as a design objective, yet it may have been questionable with regards to the racing specs. Turns out that was not the case as the EPic 18X is 18 ft long.
So, I just don’t get it. The brief descriptions of the benefits from Epic just do not ring true with me. I also do not see them rushing to put wagging tails on their surf skis. We will see.
No hard feelings here.
They Certainly know Paddling
Greg and Oscar are awesome paddlers and efficient sea kayaks are relatively simple craft to design.
Chuck Yaeger was an awesome test pilot, but I would rather fly an airplane designed by Burt Rutan.
Dennis Connor is an awesome sailor, but I would rather race a sailboat deigned by Bruce Farr.
Tiger Woods is an awesome golfer, but I would rather use a putter designed by Scotty Cameron.
The wagging tail, and their decision to have the 18X only meet the USCA specs and not others has caused me to have some doubts about the decision making process at Epic. I also wonder if they polled their customer base prior to moving manufacturing to China. My feeling is that kayakers are a proud and patriotic group. I suppose if the cost saving are passed on we would be more accepting.
Anyway, it will be interesting to watch Epic as they move ahead. I do wish them the best because I am a very strong advocate of high performance sea kayaking in equipment like Epic offers.
Cool
My thinking is that these are two of the finest paddlers on the planet, and also seem to be two very friendly and supportive fellows who have done a lot in the industry to help and encourage others. They have the onions to start their own little company and develop some pretty cool products. My guess is they barely make it, as Epic is not a big corporation.
Have they done everything perfectly? Who has?
You may have a point with that system, as clearly for some it doesn’t make sense to some. But that does not mean it’s a terrible approach. They may change it…who knows…or soon other brands will have similar systems…who knows.
I think you are projecting your experiences in design, business, etc., on Epic, and I just think those two guys deserve some respect, and the benefit of doubt. I understand your points, but just don’t think these guys operate that way. A friend worked years back with Barton on paddle design…says he’s one of the smartest, nicest, most fair people he’s ever worked with.
Innovation and forward momentum will come with some things that tweak us…and that’s good in my book!
More…
– Last Updated: Mar-19-07 5:58 PM EST –
"Wayne H is a good guy and solid paddler, but to suggest that just because something is sold by his school/website it's 'legit' is giving way too much credit to USK."
It is -some- evidence it may be "legit". I think USK thinks about the stuff they sell (I hope they do so. Otherwise, they compromise their reputation.) It makes some sense to trust USK implied evaluation for a product if they have a good reputation.
"By way of example, ever see the USK video, 'Beyond the Cockpit?' Has to be the worst instructional video out there."
Why, exactly, is this the "worst"? I have seen it and thought that the intent was to teach people some "extreme" ways they could think about how a kayak could be used. It is not a normal, basic instructional video at all. To some degree, it was an opportunity for Derek Hutchinson to show off.
#3 looks sexy though
farr, eh
put me down for Jaun K, ABN AMRO all the way
re-reading
– Last Updated: Mar-26-07 7:09 AM EST –
Is it safe to assume that those kayaks that were recently invented that come out of the water when they get up to speed and seem poised to set (if they haven't already) the speed records for racing are also just a worthless gimmick...?
After all it is something new....
opps... this wasn't directed at the person who also used "re-reading" in their post
more of just a reminder for us to "think outside the box"...new ideas and designs are not inherently bad just because people are coming out with new concepts to old ideas...
the flyak
works with pretty proven technology, hydrofoils, just look at a foiler moth dinghy from fastacraft. I’ve got an older sea kayak I think with a thermal plastic boat a guy built with the same coke bottle idea, that was a while ago and we dont see his boats setting records.