Cool…
Can visualize that better. Sounds like a slight correction or addition after the final stroke. Have to play with that.
sing
wow I’ll have to start trying to do that
looks like good flat water practice!
More on the "closed-faced stern draw"
Indeed, EJ say that a closed-faced stern draw after peeling out can propel you accross most any 75 foot river without another stroke. And that’s in a playboat that has no speed. Of course, the stern of a short boat is pretty much right behind your hip so I think the stroke is close to the “gliding draw”. The way I picture the geomerty is: the boat is about sideways to the oncoming current. The paddle is nearly vertical behind the hip (with the upper hand over your head). The leading edge of the paddle is angled in (closed face), so it has a slight angle to the current. The paddle acts just like an underwater sail against the uncoming current and propels the boat until the boat’s downstream speed matches the current. I haven’t been in my whitewater boat in a while, so it’s only theory to me, but it sounds good
if
if it is truely a closed face (backface) ruddering stroke it would technically be a pry.
Draw is open (powerface) pry is closed (backface)
terminology nazi
steve
Well, not not exactly.
Draw refers to moving the paddle toward the boat (power face toward the boat) and pry refers to moving the paddle away from the boat (power face toward the boat). So you can have both an open faced and closed face draw stroke. Consider a bow draw. You move the paddle toward the boat near the bow with the power face somewhat open to the rear. Is that now a pry? Don’t think so.
if pry is power face away
and draw is power face towards, what is duffek, I am so new school, I didn’t even know what a duffek was.
Nice!
Wow, I never thought I’d see a seak kayak do a stern squirt (which is just a pivot turn gone completely vertical).
Combo Stroke
sliding draw, pull towards bow and then smoothly transition into a forward stroke. That forward stroke can decide whether you pull yourself into a small eddy in fast current, or get pulled out the backside.
sing
My understanding of a Duffek
As you enter an eddy edging upstream, plant your vertical paddle in the eddy upstream of the bow with the paddle face toward the boat and open (forward edge is further away from the boat). Your bow should remain relatively stationary while the main river current whips your stern around. As the stern moves you gradually turn the paddle to parallel to the boat, to closed face, to the position for a forward stoke. You then take that forward stroke to keep yourself in the eddy. It is a stroke that is mostly used for hard to maneuver slalom boats. Ask G2D for more information.
come paddle
with us at Deception Pass, WA on a big springer. 8.5 knots and B I G whirlpools. karl once did a Mystery Move in an Explorer HV. i have done a number of pivot turns in a Tempest. it’s all about relaxing in the WP.
steve
duffeck
a very OPEN bow draw. planted in the already OPEN position cranks on the spin. BIG turning power at the expence of slowing down (and stress on YOU)
steve
draw/pry
"Draw refers to moving the paddle toward the boat (power face toward the boat) and pry refers to moving the paddle away from the boat (power face toward the boat). So you can have both an open faced and closed face draw stroke."
agreed. you are talking here about degrees of open-ness. you can have a very open draw or one that is closer to neutral, what you are calling closed face. but if you close the face beyond neutral it becomes a pry.
when I teach stern ruddering I sometimes hook a towbelt to the students waist and tow them at a good clip. then i have thwm insert the paddle at neutral (no pry or draw) then experiment with blade/shaft articulation. cause and effect.
it don’t take long to realize where neutral is, where 1 degree right (closed) gets me a pry and one degree left (open) gets me a draw. Sure if I open it up to 10 degrees i get a huge effect but the key is to stay close to neutral where all the control and speed lies.
surfing glassy pacific waves teaches you this FAST!
“Consider a bow draw. You move the paddle toward the boat near the bow with the power face somewhat open to the rear. Is that now a pry? Don’t think eso.”
Bow rudder placed dead neutral (parallel to boat) then opened to the rear? where water is pushing the backface towards the hull? why indeed this is a pry.
let the front, leading edge slide over and whack the hull and it will indead pry the bow over. this is a canoe stroke from ancient times.
steve
cross bow pry
http://www.secondwindsports.net/Key%20Elements.htm
granted its x-bow but as you said this is a rudder stroke with the trailing edge opened away from the hull at the bow. effect?
steve
We are talking past each other.
As I assume you know there is a difference between a static pry or draw and a dynamic pry or draw. The example I gave was a dynamic stroke in which the paddle moves toward the boat, the boat is edged toward the paddle, and the paddle face is closed. The boat will move toward the paddle, and the paddle is moving toward the boat and you end up going in a circle controlling the turn from the inside. In my book that is a dynamic closed face draw.
sematics
"dynamic closed face draw" in my book doesn’t exsist.
'dynamic barely open face draw" does
steve
aha I now how to do a transition from a
hanging draw to a forward stroke.
why not be able to do lots of pivot turn
from a surf or white water boat in the deception pass tide race? is it a long paddle to get out there from the launch?
Sea kayak vs whitewater
In a sea kayak, where the water is essentially flowing past your bow, the “current” is flowing parallel to your boat. Then everything Steve says is exactly true. In whitewater, after leaving the eddy in a short slow boat, the current is mostly perpendicular to the boat. That’s when the closed face paddle held vertical near your hip acts as a sail and helps moves the boat forward accross the river. To picture it better, pretend the paddle is unfeathered so your top blade is angled the same way. Now image there’s a strong wind blowing downstream. Your top blade would be in the orientation of a sail. That’s what happens underwater with the bottom blade in the current.
NM
probably a slow Nautical Mile. too far, IMO.
plus it’s pretty big for a ww boat. even the sea boats are small in relationship to the hydrology.
the whirlpools are literally 20’ in diameter and 5’ deep!
steve
My suggestion
Have a look at Eric Jackson’s DVD “Strokes and Concepts”. Watch the section on the “C-stroke”, which is a combination of a closed face bow draw and a forward stroke. It explains what I have apparently been unable to.