not referencing winter’s designs
just boat design in general. i like the efficiency of the longest waterline and least ‘rest of the boat’ that plumb ends provide. i wish you could paddle my phoenix brown pelican fastest 14’ seaboat on the planet(ok maybe a troll) plus i am a chesapeake sharpie, uffa fox, phil bolger, jensen fan. beauty thru function! light, long, and fast is fun
Are you sure about that?
In chop, my Q700 has enough LWL to brige across several wavlets and rides very smoothly. When out with Brit boats - I’ve notice that their shorter LWLs tend to fit in the troughs more, and there is less volume in the ends to hold them up, casuing them to be the corks.
Your perception is based on what you think would happen, not what does.
Conditions vary - so at certain time you’ll see this go either way depending on wave size/frequency. In bigger stuff (than chop) you’ll get a bit less slap with finer ends - but the volume in the 700’s bow keeps it up, on course, and on speed. For that, some of us can take a little slap now and then! You’d also be hardpressed to find hulls that handle rear quartering stuff better.
Points made and taken.
The only plumb bows I’ve actually paddled have been in canoes and shorter yaks. I guess I need to catch a Q600/Q700 or Epic18 in action out in the fun stuff before I make assumptions.
What’s so enlightened about…
...another line of disgustingly bland boats? How many flavors of vanilla does the kayak market need? With all due respect to their hydrodynamic efficiency, John Winter's boats are just plain ugly and BO-RING. If I'm having trouble sleeping, all I have to do is go to the QCC web site and by the time the third image loads, I'm out like a light! ;-)
Personally, I'll take a 15' WL boat with a couple of feet of overhang added on and some rocker in the hull any day. Aesthetics aside, I like the way they handle, particularly in tight quarters and rough water.
I’ve seen the light
And I’m embarresed to be a QCC owner. After reading all of the negative comments about the 500, I went out and took a bow saw to mine, reduced it to trashcan-sized pieces, and into the garbage it went!
Now I’m going to let you all decide which boat I should be paddling.
My specs:
54 yrs
250#
5’-10"
52" chest
44" waist
mostly flatwater, occasional trips to the Chesapeake Bay or other coastal areas
birding and wildlife watching with binoculars
occasional camping trips, as long as a week
Help me Oh Wise Ones!
Jim
Brian’s honesty
I have to admire Brian’s honesty.
There is a reason Brit boat folk are called ‘Pretty Boat People.’ British kayaks ARE very pretty! They manage to be so while being fabulous boats to paddle in real conditions.
I don’t mind that there are more Swifts and QCCs in my paddling group. However, if an observer admires a boat it is usually one of the few Brit boats in the group.
Maybe it’s becaus I live in the Northeast or in one of the highest concentrations of Colleges and Universities in the USA, but on or off the water my Aquanaut gets attention, compliments and questions.
On my way home this evening, I stopped to buy cat food etc… As I was heading back to my car, a woman walked up and said “Excuse me sir, but who made your boats?” I replied that the one closest was a Valley boat. She responded with a satisfied smile “I thought I recognized the lines.” I noted that the other was an NDK boat. She said “They sure are beautiful.”
By the way, she paddles an Artic Hawk.
Here’s a qajaq that I can’t stop
looking at: http://community.webshots.com/photo/107779185/140954541YIaIpq
Don’t know the builder, I just came across it and it has inspired all my future boats, I’m sure of it.
Also, if you like upswept ends Wayne’s new replica is very sweet:http://www.qajaqusa.org/cgi-bin/GreenlandTechniqueForum_config.pl/frames/read/23184
whoowee
those are beauties, the two tone skin on the first one is really nice. I thought wayne’s was awesome from the moment I saw it. I’d love to squeeze into that baby to paddle it. I have a feeling there is an airwave replica inspired by that qajaq in the near future?..
Brit kayaks
Just for the record. Not all british kayaks have lots of rocker, upswept stern and skeg.
My british designed and build Inuk has little rocker and a rudder and still it definitely thrives in rough conditions.
/Peter
Kirton Inuk
Yes, the Kirton boats do not have the “West Greenland” look of many other Brit boats. They are rare on this side of the pond.
I, among others, would love the opportunity to test paddle a Kirton sea kayak.
Not all North American boats are bland
…or bloated, either. “British design” is a term used to describe a particular look and school of thought, not necessarily a point of origin.
The Inuk is an offshore racing boat and looks like similar boats built elsewhere. It either suits your needs or it doesn’t.
you obviously
like the retro look…to my eye, it;s like looking at a model T…not an attractive boat…but, to each his own I guess.
Sweet boats!
I came across Wayne’s last week and was in awe. Low, low volume, lots of rocker and fine ends. I’d guess that the wind doesn’t catch much even with the upswept ends.
On the two-tone, is it just an optical illusion or does that thing actually have an inverted rocker? Tracking like a train whether you want to go straight or not, eh? Beautiful work regardless.
Offshore vs. Flat water
You folks are really looking at this in a ridiculously narrow way. There is no such thing as “Brit boats” that all have a certain “feel”. They are all different.
Likewise, there is no rough water limitation to a steeper bow angle or a little more LWL (Q700, Inuk, or FENN Mako ski!). Again, just different.
You say the Inuk is an offshore racer - which it is. However, it has a longer waterline and steeper bow, like a QCCs, which you say are not good for rough water.
LWL and bow angle do not determine boat handling. Winters hulls are not designed only with flat water speed in mind. That is a surprisingly narrow assumption coming from paddlers who usually seem to be fairly rational and knowledgeable otherwise.
The 600/700 handle a variety of things well. They just handle a bit differently - like a slightly longer “Brit” boat - but more efficient than a boat like that would be as they do not lose speed cutting down into every bump. Occasionally that means a little slap. Each slap = a lot less strokes needed - forward OR corrective.
You simply can’t take a single design element and attribute handling to it like that. I own a Q700, I’ve paddled several Brit boats. They are much more similar than different.
Winters did not only study hard numbers. He is well versed in other designs both modern and ancient. From what I’ve read, he’s seems quite impressed by the British contributions, and the native designs in particular. The difference is, he did not feel bound to them - or compelled to simply copy/continue on tradition alone. He simply took stock of what worked and added a bit more provable naval engineering to the mix and refined kayak designs a bit more. It is not a radical at all, but it is a logical difference.
Well sitting in the grass
doesn’t help much, but it must have some rocker?
That guy sure has a good eye for getting the Greenland lines all balanced out. That’s why I like SOFs; they’re all one of a kind.
L
Holy Cow I am actually agreeing with jim3727 on the Cady Fin retro look??? The only thing I like about the “Elf” boats is that they make assisted rescues slightly easer as that Knob hanging out on the end makes a handy area to grab. But 99% of the time its just hanging out there for looks, just like a late 50’s Caddy fin! But hey if you like the “retro” look cool. I do think it would be pretty boring if all boats looked the same.
Still waiting
For your Sage Advise, Oh Wise Ones.
Jim
variety
Variety is the spice of life and paddling.
Though my Brit boat has upswept bow and stern, it has very little rocker as is the case with the Chatham 18 which is a North American boat that is designed like a ‘Brit boat.’
Brit (and Brit influenced)sea kayaks seem to share seaworthines. They most often also have day hatches and skegs. This is not to say that neither traditional North American boats (CD Solstice etc) nor Winters boats are not also sea worthy. Though I do wish they had day hatches:)
Oh thats easy
A Tarpon 160 SOT!!
Two steps
backward, one step forward.
Jim