Epic Endurance 18 vs. QCC 700X

Has anybody done a comparison of the Epic Endurance 18 and the QCC700X? I have a “need” for a faster boat (but due to space limitations it has to be less than 19 feet long). This boat would be primarily my workout boat. For heavy conditions and touring, I’d still use my Looksha IV. Input, suggestions and recommendations would be appreciated.

Can’t help
with the comparison as I have only seen a couple of Epics around here.

If you want a deal on a true “workout boat”, QCC has a used carbon-fiber 700 with no rudder in stock. It’s solid white.

A workout boat?
Really. Is that what you really want? Get a white water boat. You will get a much better workout in a much shorter time. It is analogous to getting a workout on an old fat tired bicycle. If all you want is to get exercise, well, you know what I mean.


– Last Updated: Oct-28-05 11:08 PM EST –

If intending to get a rudder the Epic has a better design for the mounting of it than the QCC. The stern is designed for it.

If not intending to get a rudder, well, not sure you can get an Epic without one, and apparently it is tough to make go straight without one in any case. So the QCC would be better in that event.

Speedwise, there isn't much to choose between the two. Most QCC proponents will say that boat is a bit more well-rounded for various water conditions so if you could have only one boat you might like that one better.


But it’s sort of demoralizing to have the “wall” come up so quickly as it does in a short fat boat. Best to be able to approach it on a gentle slope.


I asked that very same …
question here two and a half years ago when I decided that I wanted to start racing something other than my poly Eclipse.

At that time the general consensious was the 700 was the faster of the two, and since they had the money back guarantee I opted for it.

I have never been disappointed in my choice, but I have never paddled the Epic 18, except at demos where I got the impression that it was not made as well as the QCC.

In my age group, I have been beaten soundly by a guy in the Epic in the Bogey and Bacall, but in other races I have beaten the Epic.

Hopefully someone who has owned both will step up and give their assesment of both.

My own rating of the 700:

-Leaky hatches, but QCC stayed with me until they were corrected (two new front hatches-no cost)

  • I have no love for the sealine rudder, but I like their set-up with the solid foot pegs.
  • I have been in rough water many time and it handles well
  • I like the way it surfs on big breaking whitecaps. It surfs much better in shoreline breakers than my plastic Eclipse did.
  • It handles wonderfully in high winds from any direction.

    -It tracks perfect with the rudder up and responds well to leans.

    I can paddle it all day without any back or butt pain, but I seem to be able to do that even in a 9 foot rec boat, so that is probably just me.
  • If for some reason I had to replace it, I would do it with the same.



Another Round
on the guitar… This is one batted around time and again.

Speaking primarily for the Q-Ship, I have a feeling that your Looksha IV will end up hanging on the straps once you become accustomed to it. As a friend once accurately observed, the QCC is a touring boat that happens to be quite fast, while the Epic is a detuned racing boat that you happen to be able to tour in. Speedwise they’re pretty much a toss up, although I might give the nod to the Epic ever so slightly here, primarily the carbon version. I’d also hazard to say that the Epic surfs better-here too, the carbon version accelerates well on a wave. Both are great fun in this regard. The QCC, I’ve found, makes great time into a headwind and in heavy chop. You get quite a lot of bow slap, but aside from the ‘Thwack, thwack!’ it’s extremely well-behaved, and deceptively quick. It gets pushed around a bit in the wind, but it’s very manageable, edges well, and can turn surprisingly quickly for a boat its length. I’d agree with the rudder setup on the two boats. On the QCC the housing drags in the water at speed, an-noy-ing. Check out the seating in both. I prefer the Epic’s slightly more narrow foredeck, that allows for a tighter catch to the boat-it feels more K-1 like in its seating position. The QCC feels cavernous, and I’ve been having problems with the seating position. Both roll easily-I wish the 700 had a lower back deck for laybacks, but using the wing paddle, rolling it is not a problem. In terms of QC, no contest. The Epics have come up significantly in this regard the last couple of years, but my 700 is one of the most finely finished boats I’ve seen. The finish is just beautiful, and mine is darn near flawless. Very impressive. The hatches do leak, just a bit, but they always did, even after replacement to attempt to alleviate this when the boat was brand new. Most Epics do also. I do like how large they are-you can fit the kitchen sink in there. If you’re looking new, you could pick up some decent blem Epics at great prices-the QCCs generally go higher than these. Personally, I’d bite the bullet if I were going Epic and get the carbon version-it’s much lighter and feels seat of the pants faster on the water. Regular paddling friends own both versions, and I’ve paddled them enough to notice a difference, particularly if you’re going to use it as your workout boat. If a workout boat’s what you’re after though, and you want to keep your Necky, maybe consider a K-1 trainer, something like a Tercel, Kirton Talisman, or even something that spans the categories like a Nelo Razor, Kayakpro Jet or the like? A surf ski too is loads of fun and will be light years faster than your Looksha. These boats will make the QCC feel like a barge in comparison, but definitely provide a challenge and satisfy the ‘need for speed.’ Good luck!

Carbon QCC For Sale
The best deal in carbon fiber will be used boats.

The price of carbon fiber has gone through the roof if it can be bought at all. I was speaking with QCC about it and they said they can not get any from their supplier.

I spoke with their supplier a few days later when they made a sales call in our office. I sell sailboats for a major manufacturer and we buy materials from same company. He confirmed that carbon is tight because of defense and airline industry demand. He said that kayak makers could buy another weave of carbon, but it is much rougher in texture. Not sure if this stuff will work.

Ive had my epic for about 9 months now and have really liked paddling it.I have been in about 6 or 7 races since Ive had it and won a division or the race each time so you can see Im sold on Epic.I think you will have better service out of <br /> Qcc but hopefully you want need it<br /> I think the Qcc is made better it looks almost flawless but as fast as the Epic is I dont care if it has a few flaws

I don`t think you can go wrong with the Q or The Epic

won’t work
Technique is wrong in whitewater boat if you are trying to train for touring or racing. It is best to train in the boat that you intend to paddle on a regular basis. If resistance is wanted it can be added to the boat. I use tennis balls under the hull on my sprint boat. Three balls pretty much stops the boat after each stroke.

Consider your weight and conditions.
A heavier paddler of 200+ lbs may perfer the QCC700 over the Epic. This becomes more true if paddling in rougher water. The QCC has more reserve bouyancy (bouyancy above the waterline) which is important when paddling in waves, especially when surfing downwind.

The same guy may find the Epic faster in flatter water above waterline characteristics do not come into play. As paddler weight decreases the rough water performance of the Epic should increase.

Some have said the Epic squats so much when sprinting that the forward foot of bow comes out of water. This is not planing, but a radical change in trim aft that could only cause a steep increase in drag. I have never seen this, but its been reported to me by different people. Not many people could paddle the Epic hard and lon enough for this to matter.

I weighed 175lbs or less I would lean towards the Epic. Over that I would consider the conditions I paddled in. If its ocean with surfing then I would put more weight on the QCC700. No pun intended.

Its a tough call, but paddler weight and conditions would be some good parameters to base a decision on.

The Epic does squat as described
I weigh 150 and put a foam seat as far forward in the cockpit of the Epic as it could reasonably go. Still, when I get up to about 6.5 mph, about 10 inches of the previously submerged portion of the bow comes out of the water. I was paddling along side another Epic 18 with a heavier paddler and his did the same. I don’t think my QCC 600 does that, but never really checked. Anyone know about the the QCCs – 600 or 700?

I had both boats
At sprinting speed my QCC 700 squats a lot more than the Epic did. The Epics seat adjusts forward. I moved my seat forward two inches and because the Epic has a longer combing (length inside boat ) getting in and out of the boat is still easy. I tore out my seat in the QCC and put in an ONNO chair seat (great seat!). I bonded that seat in forward of the original by more than three inches. I don’t think it squats quite so badly now. It is harder to get in and out of though and I’m only 5’10". Moving the seat forward as I did could/would make getting into the boat pretty hard for you tall guys. Regardless, compared to the 19’4" long Looksha 3 I had, both boats have at least one extra gear. Sprinting, I think the Epic is very so slightly faster. Both boats seemed about the same at an exercise pace. They’re both great boats and I still wish I had my Epic…Maybe another day. Franklin

No one said anything about technique.
But then my post was tongue in cheek. If the question is about a serious training boat then the answer would be different. Then I would have to ask why you need a different boat for training than what you intend to use for racing. There is no doubt that a WW boat will not do what you want for improving racing strokes. But for aerobic capacity? Works for me. :slight_smile:

Franklin is correct
all most all boats nee to be trimmed out to be efficient. I have had to move every seat in everyone of my boats. From WW play boats, touring and racing boats. it really does not matter what you weigh but your center of gravity. I place a piece of tape 4" both bow and stern of the boat. the bow should be at least 1/2’ lower in front. for most uses. Maybe more in shallow or cement water (3 to 4 ft.)

cheers Dan

eft is far better than epic or qcc
West side eft is fastest boat in 20in wide class at blackburn or usca nationals. My kevlar eft with both rudders is fabulous in big water and rocket fast in flatwater but at 225# I get my butt kicked in shallow water and was only about 7th out of 14 at nats. Was dumb not to move the seat forward about 2 in but always paddle on St Lawrence and never paddled shallows in eft. Still though the tiller rudder is so superior that even my glider has one and I love it. Buy an EFT. Buy the best before Doug retires.

isnt the EFT in a whole different class?

I didn’t think the Eft was …

– Last Updated: Nov-09-05 1:14 PM EST –

..in the same class as the QCC-700 or Epic 18. I thought it was a racing yak.

For what it is worth; In the Wrightsville beach race last Saturday The QCC-700's beat out the Epic 18's in three different age groups.
In that race and most of the others the Eft's are in the racing class.


EFT same class,
as the QCC700, the Touring Sea Kayak. Epic 18 on the other hand is in the Sea Kayak class. I have both the EFT and QCC, difference is about 20 seconds a mile in flatwater, textured water less of a difference and into chop, no difference.


Epic, EFT & USCA classes
I am passionate about this issue, so excuse me if I come across as less than tactful. Just to be clear up front. I believe the EFT is an Unlimited class kayak. It is a great boat and is a very fast Unlimited kayak for some paddlers in rougher conditions. It is also a great trainer for the Unlimited paddler or wannabe.

The USCA sponsors one race/year in flat water. This is the USCA Nationals held the last two years in the boonies of PA. At this one race, the USCA makes the QCC700 race against the EFT. It also makes the Seda Glider and the CD Extreme and others race with the EFT in their Touring Kayak class. However, the Epic 18 gets to race in the supposedly slower Sea Kayak class against much slower kayaks. Is this fair?

The USCA kayak classes are a sore subject with many paddlers, including some of their own members. Their kayak classes are not separated by parameters that have much bearing on performance. The USCA is really a canoe racing club. They would like to cash in on the popularity of sea kayaks by getting more members. I was fine with this if they offered fair kayak racing in return. Have they?

Many with knowledge of hydrodynamics have tried to support the USCA with scientific advice over the last few years. Unfortunately, the last change to their kayak class standards indicated that the USCA chose to ignore hydrodynamics in favor of other factors. Basically they created a new class for the EFT and gave it some fodder to race agaisnt. Now the USCA finds themselves with the most unfair kayak classes in the country. Is this good for our sport?

In effect the USCA has created two one-design classes: The Sea Kayak class which the Epic 18 was designed to just fit in, and the Touring class which was written around the EFT. If you have an EFT or an Epic 18 you will have a good advantage over all other production kayaks at the USCA Nationals. You may be the best paddler in the world, but how could you really know if you are racing an EFT against a QCC700?

The only boats faster than the Epic and EFT at the USCA event are custom boats designed to be optimized to the USCA specs. I collaborated with John Winters on an 18 ft Sea Kayak class boat that has won multiple USCA marathon and sprint races. Another well known designer has a 20 ft EFT killer that meets the USCA Touring class rule. However, I do not know if it has competed at their event. Do you think everyone should have to design and build a custom kayak to be competitive against the EFT or Epic?

There are some within the USCA that have suggested prohibiting custom boats or even production boats with runs less than 200 units. So the USCA may be trying to stifle innovation and discourage small companies from designing fast kayaks. All this, it would seem, just to protect the Epic and EFT’s advantage. Why? One can only wonder.

Now is this the organization we want to represent kayak racing? I was once a proponent of the USCA. I thought they might be the group to unite kayak racers. I have changed my mind after watching things go from just okay to realy bad over the last 5 years. I urge you all to discourage your local race committees from using the USCA kayak class specs.

If you are interested in reading a good kayak class spec to go the Sound Rowers website. There you will find a system that is based on waterline length to beam ratios. You will see a list of kayaks and which class they fit in. I think you will agree that they are onto something good.