Apples and oranges
To some extent, comparing a surfski to a touring kayak is somewhat of a non sequitur. Oh yeah, the ski will get you on the water and would be a kick once you got the hang of it, but you really need to try before you buy.
To start with, 14 miles is not a long cruise for a good touring sea kayak–once you get used to the boat and get in paddling condition. Resolve yourself to the proposition that becoming a kayaker is a multistep process and it happens over a period of time. Along the way, you will probably change your mind about what is important for you about the sport.
There will come a time when you will look back and wonder what your life would have been if you hadn’t discovered paddling. It can be a very big deal, so don’t be afraid to let it consume you.
My suggestion is to think sea kayaks for touring and surf skis for playing.
My V7 experience.
Paddled a V7 for 10+ miles on Lake Huron last summer. I found it very stable and easy to paddle - and I’m essentially a beginner paddler.
It’s a wet ride compared to my SINK. The bailer in the cockpit works nicely. While I didn’t use the hatch, when I examined the boat I thought the cover was really flimsy - it came off too easily while we were still on the beach. Epic needs to fix that.
Initially I loved the seat because it’s slippery and easy to rotate. After ten miles, my butt was numb. I think it’s a great boat for fitness paddling and would buy one if I could find one used and at a reasonable price. I would do something about the seat, though.
I wouldn’t use it as a touring boat because it is wet, there are no deck/parameter lines, I don’t like rudders, and it’s not a boat you can relax in should you want to stop for a snack or lunch. Sometimes I like to sit back and hang my feet off the sides while munching. Can’t do that in the V7 but you sure can go fast in it.
Different kinds of beginners
You have seat time Rookie, considerable, even if you can’t do some of the fancy stuff. OPer and wife are starting from zero.
My very limited surfski experience.
I’ve only taken a more advanced surfski for a spin for a few miles, and a touring oriented surfski - the Epic V6 - I did a quick surf demo.
The difficulty getting in would refer to someone having problems scooting themselves up over the boat from the water. I’m in pretty good shape at 44 years old, and I’m fortunate to have no problems with that thus far. Given that ability, it is decidedly easier to remount and go in a surfski. In the more racing performance oriented ski, it was really bringing my legs up into the boat where it became much more unstable. With my legs still dangling in the water to the sides, I was able to stay upright without so much attention. When I spilled out a few times, it really went without consideration to swim myself over the seating position, straddle the boat, and sit up with my legs still in the water. To be fair, I should say that I do a fair job keeping myself upright in my sea kayaks in waves, so I didn’t experience this as a beginner.
In the Epic V6, when the whitewater of a surf wave would pull the boat out from under me as I tried to turn back over the wave, due to nothing there to strap yourself to the boat, I remember just quickly hopping back on and going. Much, much easier than dealing with a sit-in with a flooded cockpit. Simply no comparison. And I’m a sea kayak guy.
I did an ocean race on a small craft advisory day with 6’ seas. As can be the case in races, you hear the gun and start racing, instead of reading the waves. So a number of us got spanked on our first attempt out through the surf. I remember being envious watching the surf ski guys hop up and continue paddling, while I dealt with washing in to shore with my kayak to empty the flooded cockpit so that I could restart.
So your logic on the remount and go for a surfski is mostly sound. But there is certainly validity to the potential difficulties brought up above.
The owner of that V6 on a different day, towards the end of a long tiring day of paddling in the waves, needed help. An able-bodied person, he was just tired out when he overturned in the inlet waves, and appeared to be just floating next to it. So I yelled to him to ask if he needed help. He accepted. Another friend was closer, and the swimmer was able to reach over his V6 and grab the perimeter lines on the sea kayak to help pull himself up.
I helped a woman another time when she capsized on a windy, choppy day in the Cape Fear River, and couldn’t get herself back onto her sit-on-top.
Granted, these would both have been assisted rescue situations in sit-ins for the same reasons. But deck lines can really help you not slip in the process of trying to mount the boat in a self rescue.
As mentioned above, the best you can do is give it a try. So think about this:
I hold the kayak away with arms extended as I swim my body and legs to the surface - swimming first.
Don’t skip “swim first”. Everyone just wants back into their boat, and they start straining their attempt because in their haste, they skip swimming their body and legs to the surface. Train yourself from the start that swimming comes first, always. I think it also helps your mental state. You change your mindframe to that of an in-control swimmer, you are now meaning to swim, instead of the mindframe of a capsize victim. It goes a long way towards relaxing, which in turn, saves tons of energy.
Next, I get my head right up to the kayak, extend my arms across the boat so that I’ll hook the other side of the kayak with my fingers, or a deck line on the opposite side, and lunge forward, pull my hands and elbows down, and a combination of pushing my body up and over the kayak, and pushing the kayak down and underneath of me. I think it’s more helpful to think about bringing your arms and elbows straight down underneath of you - pushing the kayak under you. You need to give attention to keeping the boat level, as not to be trying to slide onto a hull that’s tilted upwards. Keep it level as you push it underneath of you.
This next thing sounds, feels, and looks silly, but doing it is 100 times more useful than just thinking about it. If you were to lay on the floor on your stomach right now, you can experience that keeping your arms together straight out, and then keeping your arms together as you bring them down underneath of you, you probably have a lot of strength, you definitely have the most extension, and the most leverage doing it that way. If you can bring your arms underneath of you on the floor this way, you should be able to do it holding onto a boat in the water this way. Remember that your life jacket will have to clear the edge of the boat that you’re pushing underneath of you. People commonly get caught up on their life jacket. You want to push that boat under/lift your body over, all the way under your pelvis so that you’re balanced over it, in one motion. I find that if I don’t succeed in one motion, it takes less energy for me to fully dismount and try again than it does to wrestle with a state of unbalance and a weaker position to continue to try to adjust onto it.
So that initiates your position to continue your self rescue. I’m not going to say the rest is easy. But this is the part folks have referred to in terms of difficulty self rescuing without deck lines. This is that first step. So all you can do is just get out, and see if you can do it.
Exposure is hugely different between sit-on-tops and sit-ins. In a sit-in, I have a waterproof skirt tunnel starting just below my chest, and I’m pretty protected from wind/weather all the way down. You are considerably more exposed to the elements sitting on top - a cold rain, wind, wave, splash - on a sit-on-top. It’s not being secured within the boat, eliminating a lot of boat control, and the added exposure, that have kept me favoring sit-in sea kayaks overall. But I see advantages to both.
it’s a good beginner boat
The lack of back support means you will develop a stronger core. Leaning on a back band while paddling is terrible form anyway. The caveat being it will take some fitness to paddle all day though 14 miles in a surfski doesn’t take that long. a ski cruises at 6-7 mph.
Your legs will obviously be wet so in cold water you need neoprene. 3mm neoprene pants or 1.5mm NRS hydroskin are the standard in the NW with 50F water.
Beginner surfskis are popular beginner boats in other parts of the world. We paddle year round in Seattle with winter temps in the 40’s and water from 48-55F.
As far as safety after a capsize. If you work at it you can remount in under 30 seconds. The Sidesaddle remount is super easy to learn. Look at Epics youtube channel. I know 80 year olds with replacement hips and knees who paddle skis regularly .
You need to spend some time on the water
Try to find a dealer or outfitter who gives paddling lessons and has a wide variety of kayaks to try out.
At this point you have very little idea of the real world of paddling.
I would suggest for your first year you take a few classes and do some guided tours with outfitters and get a feel for what you like and don’t like, then worry about investing in two boats. Also I would suggest buying your first boats used, and you and your wife will probably end up with very different boats given your size differences.
Paddling a surf ski is a gas but it’s a very dedicated kind of intensive paddling. Give it a try before you spring for two skis.
Cool thread
I’d like to try a V7 myself. As for your question about which poly sea kayaks fit you and your wife everyone will have an opinion depending upon your intended use. I’ll start those suggestions with a Wilderness Systems T170 for you and T165 for your wife if you can find them to rent.
125 lb woman in a Tempest 165?
Seems a bit large for someone that size.
Tempest doesn’t come any smaller
And as far as cockpit fit it is a good match for me at ten pounds heavier.
With others weighing in
I may have overshot the mark on difficulty re-entering a surf ski, though it appears that balance to get fully seated back up can still be an issue. Sorry about that. Though it remains that once the paddler is tired all bets are off. Have encountered even healthy fit younger guys unable to get back on a SOT without assistance once they were tired enough. Supposedly can’t-fail type boats, leading to a very funny set if pics several years ago when a 120 pound wife had to tow her husband in hanging onto a SOT - she was in an old Swifty.
But the point about the wet ride… it is a very wet ride of course and you really need to assess well whether your wife would like being that soaked. Not that kayaking is a dry sport, at all, but in a SINK with a skirt there is some sense of cover for your body.
I will say this again, to everyone
All the comments about stability and learning curve are good - but only relative. If an individual is athletically inclined and has a good sense of balance, their feedback may vary within that relativity. Yes, one still needs to develop good skills.
I was warned about my first composite kayak being tippy, but it never felt that way to me, and I was taking photos out of it on the second week. My demo paddle of the V7 was my first demo of a ski, and I was able to balance quite easily, whether still or moving. Certainly a part of that was my kayaking experience, but not all of it.
The best answer for whether a boat is stable enough is for you to try it yourself.
The 165
The reason I suggested the 165 is as Celia mentioned the outfitting. It will lock down tight enough to fit my 5’ 95lb wife comfortably and still paddle ok. The Scorpio LV I have she can’t reach the pegs on and is no where near the thigh braces. The only other small poly boat I’m aware of in North America is the Alchemy S which we haven’t tried for fit yet. Big hole in the market for the petite entry boat. I do have a Statos S sitting beside me in the living room for my wife’s friend and the thigh braces and foot pegs fit my wife well with the leg lifters up. Unfortunately it’s a lot wider than it needs to be for the truly petite. I’d love to see WS offer a Tempest 150 at 15’ 20" wide with a 10" deck, basically a hair smaller than a composite Eliza but with an Impex Mystic height deck for people under 5’6. Opinion here is that it won’t sell though, I think it would. I would understand if they increased the width to 20.5 to fit a broader market.
Hatch
"I’ve seen reviews about the soft hatch cover failing and becoming flooded. " For what it’s worth, the 2016 models have two changes - a hard hatch for greater security and a plastic rudder for greater ruggedness.
The Epics are “cheap” because plastic.
The V7 and V5 are plastic, rather than the usual light weight composite, which is why they sell new for just over 1/2 price of a new V8 or V10.
The V5 may fit yor wife better than V7.
Less boat for the smaller paddler to keep moving at a good cruising speed than the longer V7 and should feel quite efficient to her.
Even though the max beam is 23.6", the waterline width with her weight in it will likely only be about 21".
I’m 160 lbs and don’t sink my V6 to the max beam, which helps the boat to be efficient and have a bit of reserve stability.
She should try both the V7 and V5, if possible.
Lots of bad info and opinion here!
Boy this thread is crazy! Lots of people giving wrong information and opinionating without ever paddling a surfski and then trying to steer the OP to a sea kayak.
I will tell you what I think about the V7 and rookie-paddling one, having owned one since September of last year and paddling it A LOT in everything from lakes to rivers, bays and the Gulf of Mexico and surfed waves as well.
I won't get into all the specs, materials, etc. since that is widely-available. I just want to address the points brought up.
Let's get the V5 out of the way. I really don't see the point of that boat. I don't know why Epic even bothered. The thing is three feet shorter and more than two inches wider, yet weighs and costs almost as much as it's bigger sister--a difference of only four pounds and $50! Does it make any sense to go for a V5?
The V7 seat is simply luxuriously comfortable and ample, but as they say, your mileage may vary. Everyone's butt is different. I have paddled more than 20 miles without any problems with no back support. If you paddle with proper form, without slouching, you won't need back support.
Remounting is a breeze and you have handles on both sides of the cockpit to help you with that as well as carrying the boat. A cowboy remount is easier than some of the more popular surfski remounts you see on YouTube. And no, there is no need for perimeter lines or anything of the sort.
Surfskis are wet rides. If you don't want to be wet all over, get a sit-inside kayak.
The fabric hatch cover is the one big flaw on this boat. Yes, it will fail if a wave breaks hard over it, and yes, the boat will flood if that happens. However, Epic has improved the boat for 2016 by adding a hard hatch cover that goes over the fabric one to protect it from imploding. You still have to tighten the fabric cover properly, which is not really easy to do and can be messed up. There is a video that tells you how to do it, but Epic could have done a better job of providing instructions.
You can retrofit this hard cover on the 2015 models. I was told the new cover kit will be available beginning this month and will cost $80.
The other thing they did to improve the situation was to install foam bulkheads fore and aft of the hatch. This reduces the amount of room you have to stow away stuff, of course. In the 2015 there are foam pillars that run longitudinally fore and aft, which allow you to stuff things on either side of them far forward and behind the hatch, but of course, will allow water to flow freely throughout the boat in case of hatch cover failure.
Stability is rock solid. The V7 is the most stable surfski I have ever tested. I can rock the boat from side to side without bracing until I'm dipping the edge of the seat in the water and the thing won't go over. That's how stable it is. How you feel on it will depend on your experience level, obviously.
All in all, I have enjoyed the boat tremendously, on all kinds of water and with both the surf rudder and the plastic kick-up rudder. If you can lift 50+ lbs. you will like this boat.
Apologies
Consider me slapped. I did not know there were handles. Something solid to hang onto matters, what it is less.
Unmentioned, unless l missed it, all of this dialogue is happening without input from someone the size of the OPer’s wife. A much smaller person from the above description than the guys here. Add in the possibility of being tired. Is the V7 as apt choice in terms of handling? Does the scale of the boat risk leaving her more tired in the case of repeated remount than a taller guy.
And most of the discussion above accounts for a paddler getting back onto their own boat unassisted. If there is an issue out there that means assistance is needed, say some disorientation from seasicknesd or a shoulder issue for a capsized paddler, do surf skis provide the helper in their boat the kind of support that is available to someone in a SINK?
I am not trying to be a hard arse. I am mentioning situations l have come upon myself or directly known someone who hss. Usually a mile or more offshore because Murphy is not into making things easy.
If you’ll put the timei in, its great
ignore the fact that its a surfski. Just ask, is a 21.5" wide kayak good for a beginner? Many beginners will struggle somewhat with a 21" kayak. However, this will depend on a lot of factors.
If you have generally decent balance, that will help a lot (did you snow or water ski, play hockey, slack line, rock climb, or anything else that takes some balance? that will help.
Are you generally athletic? I pick up sports generally quickly and outgrow boats relatively fast. Im analytical and mentally break down a repetitive motion sport like paddling to focus on my technique, and understand what my boat feels like under different conditions, then try to predict situations. If you wont be paddling much or dont care to think about the mechanics of paddling much, a 21" boat will be harder to master.
Basically, if you will paddle frequently (2+ times a week), you are somewhat athletic, and are willing to fall in a couple times without becoming frustrated, the V7 is fine. This isn't a boat only the top 10% or 1% of paddlers can handle regardless of how scary some people make it sound. It was introduced as an entry level surfski.
Test paddle it if possible and decide yourself, but I think its a reasonable boat for an ambitious new paddler.
Also, I agree with everything Canucka said above. That's a good assessment of the boat.
surfski rescues scenarios
Here’s a few surfski rescues I’ve been involved in either as swimmer or rescuer.
I’ve been assisted in remounting in hawaii with rebounding 8 footers coming off the cliffs. Got knocked out of the boat and couldn’t remount. This was a rented ski in my first 6 months of paddling and first real offshore ski paddle. It’s easiest to just grab either end of the swimmers boat and steady it. Most new boats have handles on both ends and some have side handles next to the cockpit.
Back deck swimmer rescue is also possible with some practice. The swimmer has to stay glued to the back deck.
I’ve also rescued someone too hypothermic to stay upright with another paddler on the other side. This was in 25 kts of wind and 4-5 foot wind waves. Victim just sat there. We paddled with one foot in our own foot well and one foot in the victim’s foot well to stay rafted up.
There’s also the option to paddle feet out. Which lets you stay upright in practically any conditions. I often kick my feet out if waiting in windy choppy conditions.
It does take a bit of upper body strength and a good kick to your center of gravity over the center of the boat but no harder than getting out of a pool. Modern surfski remounts are WAY easier than paddle float or cowboy self rescues. 6-10 yrs ago surfski cockpits had narrow high sidewalls which did make remounting much harder. Modern skis are very easy to remount.
Question for you, nickjc
Say you’re paddling with a friend who’s in a sea kayak. Your buddy capsizes and needs help getting back in his/her boat. Would a surfski work with a T-rescue?