Euroblade forward stroke blade angle

Advice
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#1

What angle should the blade be at relative to the water when doing the forward stroke with the Euroblade? I’m not talking about the angle of the paddle itself (high vs low angle), but rather about how the blade is canted.

I know that for the Greenland paddle, the blade enters the water at a diving angle, canted forward. One benefit of this technique is that it allows the stroke to be easily linked into a sculling brace by pushing the submerged blade forward, since the blade is already at a climbing angle relative to the bow. When I took lessons with the Euroblade paddle, I was taught to do my forward stroke with the blade at a climbing angle, opposite of the Greenland paddle, but with similar reasoning. The angled stroke can immediately transition into a forward sculling motion by quickly changing the blade angle to go from climbing backwards to climbing forwards. This does require an additional wrist movement to change the blade angle. What I really like about both of those techniques is that they allow quick transition from the stroke into the brace. Does anyone have experience with doing the Euroblade forward stroke with a climbing angle? Also, is it possible to do the Euroblade forward stroke at a diving blade angle, like with the Greenland paddle, or would that just pull the blade underwater?

#2

That question makes my head hurt.

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#3

Yes you can do a GL stroke with a euro paddle but a GL paddle being used like a euro paddle is very inefficient.

I have had some fluttering problems with one of my euro paddles and doing my stroke with a slight cant like a GL paddle solves that problem With my GL and Aleut paddles I cant about 30 degrees but with my Kalliste I only cant about 10 degrees.
So here will say what I do with my Kalliste is all wrong, but it seems to work very well.

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#4

I typically don’t paddle in water that requires skulling and sweep strokes. All I have to do is battle wind and current. I find that most blades will fairly well self-center if permitted to in the first few strokes, as the grip gradually increases (within onebtobtwo stroke cycles). That’s particularly true with paddles that have more dihedral. In a low angle paddle like the Kalliste, there isn’t much dihedral. That can lead to stability problems if forced. If you can adjust your paddle stroke to coax the water into follow the spoon shape, that adds stability. My experiments in low angle paddling show that it’s more efficient to build speed gradually. The faster your boat goes, the less relative force you’ll need to stay on glide until you approach the hulls limit, but that’s the nature of distance paddling vs sprinting. You’ll get the same speed, but it might take 30 strokes instead of 10 to hit the same speed.

I strive for the blade face to be as perpendicular to the direction of force as possible. That offers the most resistance against slipping and give the best leverage to push the boat forward. Do whatever it takes to make the paddle blade remain as stationary as possible, because any slippage is wasted energy.

If you’re surfing or in white water. It’s another strategy.

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#5

Yeah I was wondering if it’s a good idea to do the GL stroke with the Euro paddle. Never seen anyone discuss it before.

#6

Opinions differ, but I have found the GL catch and cant of the paddle along with a very pronounced rotation of my torso makes for a very powerful stroke with my euros paddles. My thumbs brush or nearly brush the combing of my kayas when I do this type of stroke so it is a very low angle, and my catch is done in a way that the clipped angle (which makes the transition from the bottom edge of the blade to the tip of the blade) is perpendicular to the water as it enters. I allow the blade to go 100% emersed before I apply power and the power part of my stroke starts as the shaft is just behind my knees about 2" or so. Then I apply the power with the rotation of my body from my butt up to my shoulders and my rotation is rather extreme, with my chest and back going about 35 degreed off0sides from the bow/stern line of the kayak. As I do the stroke that way the power is used up as the blade flattens out and come to the surface all by itself so there is no “lifting of water”. The bow wave produced is at it’s largest at the very end of my stroke which shows the power builds all the way to the end of each stroke.
I am no expect, and many others say what I do is “wrong”. But for me, it has produced good cursing speeds of a bit over 4 MPH for all day paddling (all day being literally 8-14 hour days) and if I pour on as much power as I can, the bow of my kayak lifts up on it’s own about 2-3 inches, but I can only go that fast for about 600 yards.
I use this kind of stroke in 3 different kayaks and it seems to give me good results in all 3 and the best results in one of them, a Necky Chatham17, which is 17 feet, 4 Inches long. The other 2 are a Perceptions Sea Lion Shadow (16.5 feet long) and an Eddyline Fathom. (also 16.5 feet long)
The paddles I prefer for the most part of Greenland and Aluet paddles of my own making, and with those paddles I also differ from what many call “proper size” . I use longer paddles and also make the blades wider then most other GL paddles are made. I have made and sued them as short as 7 feet and as narrow as 3.2 inches but over a few years I have sold off the shorter and narrower ones in favor of what I now like, which are all 8 to 9 feet long with blades as narrow as 3.5" for the 9 footers and with most of them being 8 foot or 8 foot 4 inch paddles with blades between 4.25 and 4.625 wide.
So again I may be a bit of the “odd man out” especially when you note I am short at only 5 foot 6 inches and so the conventional wisdom says I am “doing it wrong”. Yet I am happy with the results I am getting with the paddles and the style of technique I am using.
By best advice is to try what I am doing and try what other do too and see what is best for you. When I do my “research” it’s not an hour here and there but I have dedicated weeks and months to trying new paddles (3-4 hours 5 days a week and some Saturdays as long as 14 hours) so I base my observations of fairly in-depth experimentation.
Results may vary, but I suspect the variation may have a lot more to do with who’s doing the paddling then it does with what deviations are done with angles, lengths and blade sizes. If it were not so all of us would be using 10 foot paddles with 3 foot long 2 foot wide blades, and paddle at a cadence of 100 strokes per minute. The reason we don’t is the people have limits. So what is said to be “perfect” is often a mathematical set of numbers and the glitch is that not every paddler can preform his or her best inside that exact set of numbers.
Do what works best for you and learn from others but understand they are OTHERS, and you need to do what is best for YOU!

#7

Your Euro paddle technique sounds exactly like the GL paddle front stroke. Do you lift the paddle out of the water when it’s behind you, as opposed to lifting it at your hip? Do you feel like you can easily low brace while doing this stroke, because your paddle is already at the low brace position?

#8

Yes to all the above.

Now to be honest I have tried and become fairly good at the textbook Euro stroke and I do very well with it using my Sting Ray and Eagle Ray Aqua Bound paddles, and also with my Warner Kalliste, but because I very often go out in windy conditions I have found a lot more security in the Greenland style stroke. With all 3 - Greenland, Aluet or Euro type paddles.

I have been blessed in my efforts to gain tips, and one person who was extremely helpful to me is a woman who teaches kayaking in Greenland named Tula. She has send me a few short videos and demonstrated that there are several different ways the Greenlanders paddle, not just one way, but also gave me the same advice I gave you. Try them all and do what works best for you.

And overall the best large overview I have found so far for “all things kayak” is from Paulo Ouelett in Canada (Dancing with the Sea)

Jyak on this forum has also been super helpful in tips to help with that textbook technique with Euro paddles. He focuses on efficiency and how it effect speed and ignores most other aspects of performance. But for the use of a euro paddle as it relates to speed,. Jyak is a very good source of info.

In addition to his teaching I got good reinforcement from Online Sea Kayaking out of Great Britain.

But yes, my own personal “standard” forward stroke is mostly a Greenland stroke. I do more torso rotation then most others show, but that doesn’t make me right and them wrong.

I find that going about 60-65 SPM and having a lot of rotation from the butt up, I can paddle for long days even on week long trips and going all day long and I never feel fatigued. And with my longer-than-most paddles I am moving my kayaks a good distance on every stroke without using so much energy that I “run out of gas”. If I try for 75 SPM I do tire out but I also cover a lot of miles in a short time.
I have never done a race and feel no desire to do so, (no one around here to do it against anyway) but I have had several paddlers and one man who rows a rowing shell with 12 foot ores all comment at my speed, saying they were amazed at how fast I was going and it looks like I am not moving my body all that much. Bret Green (my friend with the 19 foot racing shell) gave me a GPS to time me in a 1 mile leg, and was going to row along side in his Shell, but was astounded when I stopped at the beep and he was about 300 yards behind me and had to catch up. I don’t remember what the time was now, but he was shocked. He “knew” there was no way I could go as fast as he could in his shell but despite him using two 12 foot ores on the roller seated “water rocket”, not only could I “keep up”, I was so far in front of him he was unable to catch me. And Bret used to race in one of the teams in California so he’s no newbee to fast craft.
How fast was I that day? I don’t actually remember and I can’t really guess, but it was fast enough. Fast enough to shock Bret anyway.

My Sister wants me to come to Alaska and do a trip with her and her friends and when I got into kayaking I was afraid I’d be the “baggage” and not be able to keep up. Her and her friends are all experience Ocean kayakers. Her friend paddling guide and professional coach has met me now, and we did a few hours together on the lake here, and he give be firm assurance that I have nothing to worry about, and that I am cruising faster then many of his clients and friends he takes out on the coastal tours.
Besides, for touring and photography along the coast up there he says they never go faster then 4 MPH, and most days they go 10-11 hours ,but at only 3 MPH. A 30 mile day is fairly normal if the weather doesn’t force them to shore. In some cases their day/leg is only 16 miles. A very long leg is 35 miles. But day time is a long time in June, July or August in Alaska. Speed is not the most important thing on a tour. Being there is most important.

So I ignore the numbers myself. As long as I am not going to be the guy causing others to wait, I think I now am doing ok in the speed department, and so I now concentrate on maneuvering, rolling and rough water skills. If I go up the coast in Alaska I am not there to see how fast I can get past all the fun and beautiful things there are to see. But being able to handle myself and perhaps be an asset to others in the group when the seas get rough is important to me. So a stroke that is always in place for a brace just makes the most sense to me as my default stroke.

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#9

Yeah I don’t intend to do any races either. I do like to go fast, but I’d also like to not freak out when the conditions turn rough. That’s why I also prefer to have a brace ready on every stroke.

I’m currently still using rentals, which are all Euroblade, so I’m still trying to figure out which paddle I really want. I’ve actually watched many of Paulo’s videos, and the stuff he says makes a lot of sense, which is why I’m interested in the Greenland style.

One thing I’ve noticed is that Paulo describes the Greenland style as being suited to older paddlers who aren’t athletes. I’m no athlete myself, but I am in my 20s and I do weightlifting regularly. I can probably manage to learn the Greenland style if I put in the effort, but I’m not sure if that style of paddling will make full use of my physicality. If not, then I’d be leaving performance on the table. I’m not sure if I’m evaluating the Greenland style correctly here, so correct me if I’m wrong.

#10

Ylin, I started early with a GL paddle (I make them myself) and over the last 4-5 years I have come to know that the use of the Greenland paddle is more intuitive and easier overall to learn than the euro type. So have no fear at trying them. If all-out speed is the goal I have no doubt the Euro type and possibly the wing type is the best. But for about everything else the GL is as good — and for many applications I find it to be better.

#11

What type boat and paddle do you use mostly and what body of water do you paddle?

#12

For now I’m paddling touring kayaks with a Euroblade from the rental. I mostly paddle open water (Great Lakes), and would like to venture onto the sea in the future.

#13

Great Lakes are a sea. I raced offshore power boats there in Grand Haven . Probably the roughest race I was ever in or in the top 3.

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#14

Euro paddles come in different widths, ,blade lengths, weights, and loom (shaft) lengths. If you are renting the paddle chances are it is not the best for you.
When I was closer to your age and condition, I used a monster blade and could really make my rec boat move. All power and no finesse.
I suggest you put some effort into finding your best paddle fit. That will change as you progress.

#15

The blade enters perpendicular to the line of travel.

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#16

Speaking from my experience as an avid sea kayaker for the past 20 years, I would not suggest deliberately implementing modifications to your forward stroke technique for the purpose of transitioning to a brace/sculling brace more easily. It’s fine for something like this to be coincidental. For example, I happen to paddle with feathered blades with euro and wing blades. During a right hand stroke, my left blade is oriented such that if I need to transition into a brace on my left hand side during a right hand stroke, it’s very natural to transition into a low brace on my left side. This has no bearing on why I use feathered blades. It’s just a side effect. There is nothing about that detail in and of itself that is useful enough to consider in developing my forward stroke. If I’m paddling along a coast taking whitecaps on my left side, I’m not going to change the feather of my paddle for the purpose of low-brace readiness on my left side. Efficient and powerful forward propulsion is too important to me in my paddling to allow that goal to be polluted with such peripheral considerations. It’s just too unnecessary. The benefit is too low.
I would definitely suggest deliberate practice with blade angle control, with whatever paddle you’re using. Mastering blade angle control is one of the huge keys to balance and control of your paddlecraft. It works right along with what you’re doing with your body. I’ve certainly come to discover that if my loss of balance moment is predictable, I will have placed my paddle in the best position for how I wish to control and recover from that moment. So in this situation, it will have nothing to do with my normal forward stroke. If my loss of balance moment is unpredictable, a surprise, whether I scull forward or backward into a brace is dependent upon my paddle position. So having my blade canted a certain way during my stroke “for stability” is somewhat likely to be all wrong instead of all right. Well-developed blade angle control allows you to instantly and eventually without thought make whatever adjustments from whatever position to maintain that controlled climbing angle.
People will naturally modify their forward stroke for the sake of stability when they feel unstable or wobbly. It’s an instinct that I learned that I should almost always fight against. It’s most often a fairly distinct transition from a proactive paddler to a reactive paddler. For a nice anecdote touching on this subject, check out the video from Sing’s recent “Surf Ski 101” post and the paddler’s comments at the point where the paddler went into brace mode momentarily, and how he felt about that after the fact. Without a lot of experience, you may find yourself wondering if these are just thoughts for this isolated, unusual instance. I’ve had more than enough time in more than enough situations where I’ve felt that instinct to transition into reactive brace mode, here called “wallow mode” to know that it’s largely detrimental towards progressing through the moment in a timely and in-control manner.
At 1:50, “Instead of continuing to paddle normally in order to maintain stability, I go into wallow mode and inevitably that leads to trouble.”

Your forward stroke is a significant source of stability no matter what, sea kayak or surfski. I don’t believe canting the blade for the sake of a climbing sculling angle in one direction is getting at anything of significant importance. I do believe that using a canted blade for it’s positive effect on forward propulsion is a beautiful thing. In the case of the subject of this thread, “Euroblade forward stroke blade angle”, I find that I work on my form and mechanics of my stroke, with a coinciding goal of a very relaxed grip where the blade finds its own angle without my forcing it.

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