They’re tools.
There’s no need to adhere to any one discipline. The paddlers I respect most often use Euros in surf, GP’s for fun and distance, and wings for serious mileage. But if a paddler’s comfortable with one blade in all instances, so be it. Of the 3 “best” paddlers I know, one uses a GP with a storm paddle for a spare, another uses a GP and a feathered Euro, and the third uses a Euro and a wing. On any given trip, each will use BOTH their chosen paddles alternately, to stay in tune.
Euro for me.
I just do not like wooden paddles. I find the flotation annoying. I don’t like wooden Euro paddles either. Also many of the advantages claimed for GP’s don’t exist if you do not feather your paddle. But mostly it makes very little difference which you use as long as you find it fits your style and preferences. There is no general answer.
agree with most of the above
– Last Updated: Jan-06-08 8:08 PM EST –
Hi FP
Paddles have purposes. It is a lot easier to paddle long miles and to learn to roll with a GP, but if your primary aim is to race or to paddle in the surf zone exclusively you may want to go with a wing or a Euro respectively. That's not to say that you can't race or paddle the surf zone with a GP, you can, but the skinny stick isn't optimized for these purposes. Many of the very best paddlers can switch easily between skinny sticks and Euro paddles, boats and various sea states. Most of us, however, aren't professional paddlers (I note that you list yourself as just getting started) and do well to paddle at an intermediate level in a variety of conditions with equipment that we've gotten to know well. You don't mention where you paddle, your kayak(s), or your goals as a paddler, but all these and your age and condition will effect the kind of recommendations you might receive. That said, almost everything we do paddling is easier with a GP: distance forward paddling, bracing and rolling, boat control strokes. Much of the ease is because the GP is symmetric front to back and left to right: simplicity is a virtue when learning. My advice: see if you can find someone with a GP and give it a try. If you like rolling, try the standard Greenland layback roll and compare your experience to rolling with a feathered Euro paddle. If you go with a Euro, but liked the simplicity of the GP, consider using an unfeathered AT Exception Tour. Closest thing to a GP among Euro paddles. The BBK Greenlander is also kind of an in between paddle, but I'd recommend going Euro or the classic GP rather than the BBK though some people really like them.
As for recluse and kudzu, they just like skinny stick paddling. Bill in particular has more business than he knows what to do with, and makes a really nice paddle, but so do other folks. And, like others have said, you can always make your own--pretty cool too, though your first efforts likely it won't be as nice a paddle as a Beale or a Lumpy. Anyway, I wouldn't jump on Bill (recluse) anymore than I would flatpick or other folks who work in the business and participate in conversations on this board.
Above all, remember that the purpose of paddling is to have a good time on the water. Have fun with trying different paddles in order to see what you like. If you can spend big dollars on a Euro, you can probably get a GP too. Play a bit and enjoy the wonder and delight of investigating how the different paddles work for you. This board has had a *very* bad case of comparing mind recently, and IMO best not to take any of this "this or that" thinking too seriously. Might get in the way of discovering what it is that you really want.
Warm regards,
John
Hands
For warm hands I’ve used Nordic Blues and Level Six mitts. The Nordic Blues are very warm and dry but not so easy to get on and off. The Level Six mitts are easy to get on and off; dexterity is very good; they’re warm but not dry.
That said, I prefer the GP over the EP regardless of how cold the water is.
most
– Last Updated: Jan-06-08 9:29 PM EST –
of the better euro paddlers, also paddle with a greenland type mindset, even tho they chose the euro paddle. They use the water and don't fight it and transfer strokes in a smooth fashion.
They don't feel any differant as far as ease over the long haul than if they used a Greenland stick. Partially because they have mastered their stroke. and partially because they have come to grips with using a paddle that has the proper surface area for what they do and how they paddle. They exhibit "ease" on the water.
Many people that first try a euro paddle and then a Greenland paddle never found that "ease" on the water and struggled with the euro stroke with a paddle that was somewhat not optimally sized for them.
Then they find the Greenland paddle and finally get a paddle that fits. Not particularly because it's a Greenland paddle. But more so because they finally followed the sizing for a paddle that actuall fit them.
There really is no Euro vs Greenland paddle fight. Just some people are finally able to feel at ease with a Greenland paddle and don't fight it. They also finally feel the need to take some stroke improvement classes.
I find slow rolls easy to do with a euro paddle ....but it doesn't travel under water quite as well. They all have their strengths and weakness.
A small note, if you dearly love a Greenland paddle for surf, you can make one with a little more surface area and all of a sudden it grabs more.
It really isn't the paddle, it's the paddler/paddle combination.
use what makes you feel good.
Best Wishes
Roy
remember....just because it's a Greenland style paddle doesn't inherently make it a good one....they are not all created equal, anymore than all euro paddles are created equal.
Greenland Paddles
The Greenland style paddle is hands down the best all-around tool for moving your kayak. This is a simple fact. Chuck Norris told me so.
If you want to race, get a wing. But if you want to paddle, get a GP. If you can’t find a GP, get a Euro, but please get some competent coaching on using it, and don’t bother with that crank shaft crap, get a straight paddle and learn to paddle with a straight wrist.
If you get a GP, you can use it like a wing, you can use it like a Euro, or you can use it like a GP. And you can use it in ways the other two flavors don’t support very well.
OH, and if you want to spend $250 on one, PM or email me, I’ll make you one for $250. A good 'un. If you don’t get it from me, get it from Recluse at http://www.lumpypaddles.com. Yes, shameless promotion. But he makes damn good ones.
The other thing is…
JS March up there is correct, he took the time to write the serious stuff:
“Above all, remember that the purpose of paddling is to have a good time on the water. Have fun with trying different paddles in order to see what you like. If you can spend big dollars on a Euro, you can probably get a GP too. Play a bit…”
But still. For general purpose paddle as well as sneaking up on seals, GPs are the best. If 75% of my paddling was busting through tide races trying to get out on the front wave and then rudder like crazy, I might use a Werner Icky-los. Or if I wanted to beat Nigel to the lunch spot, I might exercise with a wing and a swede-form kayak with a plumb bow. But for just goin’ paddlin’ and playing in surf, and paddling rivers and poking through swamps, sneaking up on tailing reds, or shootin’ for the lighthouse on a 90* July day, I haven’t found anything better than the lollystick.
I hate to talk to a pep rally
because no one is really interested in dispassionate analysis. But crank shaft is not crap. Nor is a GP best for almost everything nor for all people. Enjoy your enthusiasm. But don’t substitute that for analysis.
Finally found euros that I like.
I like paddles with smaller blades that I can use all day without abusing my shoulders, elbows and wrists. Last summer I bought a used full carbon Epic Relaxed Tour with their more flexible burgundy shaft and really like it and a month or so ago I bought a used 230cm AT Exception SL Tour for use in my solo canoes and I think I like it even better than the Epic Relaxed Tour. I use both the Epic and AT with high angle strokes and like them. I am in relatively poor physical condition and can use either paddle for 4-6 hours with relatively little pain and discomfort compared to the other paddles I’ve tried.
I had previously tried the Werner Kalliste bent shaft, carbon Werner Camano straight shaft, Bending Branches Spirit with Day blade and an Onno Mid Tour in the Signature lay up and they were all harder on my shoulders , wrists and elbows than either than either the Epic Relaxed Tour or the AT Xception SL.
If you’re still considering a euro paddle after all of the pro-greenland paddle posts above, keep in mind that ALL BENT SHAFTS ARE NOT CREATED EQUAL! I didn’t much care for the Werner Kalliste bent shaft, but I do really like the AT bent shaft - they are very different. Some people like the Werner bend and some like the AT bend and some only like straight shaft.
I’ve never used a greenland paddle, so I can’t provide any comparison there.
Actually some do
Last year, I purchased a Feathercraft Klatwa 2 piece GP to use when I fly. Since my normal GP’s are just one piece WRC, this works for those times when I need to carry a GP on an airplane.
I Like the Werner Cyprus
never used a Greenland. Paddle with a guy who does and he switches back to a Euro.
I think quality of paddle is most important. I don’t like paddles or boats which are inferior, whatever that means.
Glenn
agree with this
had a Kaliste, sold it. Use at AT for 4 years, and thought I’d found the right paddle for me. Then I tried a GP 4 years ago as I was fascinated by the GP roll progression. Fell in love and never looked back. The point here is not a recommendation for a particular paddle, but rather to illustrate that there is an unfolding to these things that parallels skill development in a way that is very particular to an individual. You could put one of the Nigel’s in a Pungo with a plastic Aquabound and either one would be a better paddler than I am, but I have a lot of fun on the water with my GPs and various special purpose kayaks. Don’t need to be a Nigel to find the one right paddle or kayak that everyone agrees is the very best. Wrong view. What does exist is dancing on the water. As we say at home in NC, “Hit don’t get no better 'n nat.”
Paddle building…a great resource:
Check out Brian’s book. btw…I have never met Brian.
Like many folks on this site, he has been extraordinarily hospitable over the years in sharing information and web pics. His book on paddle building is a great one…
http://greenlandpaddlebook.com/
If you want to build a Euro paddle, check out Nick Schade’s classic:
http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/guillemot/Book
Nick’s book focuses upon building strippers, but also has directions for building a Euro paddle like he uses. btw, I have met Nick. He is a helluva guy, however like with Brian I have NO financial benefit for suggesting either resource.
People like Nick & Flatpick work hard to make a living in this industry that we love. I see no problem with recluse (don’t know him either) sharing his views. We are lucky to continue to get comments on listserves from folks like Nick Schade, Flatpick, Bryan Nystrom, Jay Babina, Bjorn Thomason, Joe Greenley and many others industry leaders.
Enjoy,
Bob
"GP style stroke?"
There is a common misconception that GPs are best used with a low stoke. It’s total BS. They work fine at ANY angle, which is one of the beauties of the design. While you certainly CAN use a GP at a low angle, you don’t NEED to do so.
Dry gloves
Either buy some Nordic Blues or make your own by gluing wrist seals onto fisherman’s gloves (which is what Nordic Blues are). I like the orange fisherman’s gloves, as they’re more flexible and slightly grippier than Nordic Blues.
That’s interesting…
…as most people consider the buoyancy of GPs to be a major advantage, as it makes the paddle feel lighter and allows to be used as an outrigger for resting. Even Euro paddles are becoming more buoyant, with the new foam-core blade designs. An unfeathered Euro is still an asymmetric design (except for the Toksook), so GPs still have an advantage there. The lift the long, narrow, airfoil-shaped blade produces makes sculling and rolling much easier. Bracing is consistent, regardless of which face of the paddle you use.
While I agree that unfeathered is the way to go with a Euro paddle, doing so doesn’t even come close to approximating the performance of a GP.
I guess you should dump on me, too…
…as I obviously promote GPs and I do make money from selling my book, though as you can imagine, I’m hardly getting rich on it. Call me biased if you want, but I don’t see any shameless promotion of any business here. In fact, I’d say that those of us who are in the business go out of our way NOT to promote ourselves here. If others want to do so because they’re happy with our products or services, that’s their option, but no one is shilling for anyone here.
VS?
This topic heading is enough to bring out zealots, afficianados, die-hards, and others with strong opinions, and as such, will get you a very different answer to this question.
Golf club steel shafts or graphite? Recumbent bike or upright? Road bike or mountain bike? Cross country skis or downhill skis?
The question is too broad and nonspecific, but like these examples above I think it boils down to the best tool that you, the consumer/paddler, wants to use it for. I have both a carbon Greenland Paddle (aka Novorca) and carbon Euro style paddle (aka Lendel Kinetic Tour) that are both powerful, smooth, and capable. I started with a Euro, moved to a Greenland paddle, went back to a Euro, and now have realized that I want to keep both just in case I feel more comfortable with one that the other based on the conditions, type of paddling, or whether or not I rolled out of bed on my right side or left. In other words, go with your best guess and if it doesn’t work out, get one of each like I did so you can swap when you want to based on your desires.
Envyabull
I was simply trying to inject a bit of humor on a topic that in the past has sparked a good bit of sometimes heated debate.
Hence the smiley. No sarcasm intended.
I do make paddles for others. Because of this I don’t post often and try to avoid the appearance of commercialism.
My thoughts on paddles are biased towards the Greenland paddle, and would be whether I was making them or not. I am also a coach who teaches with both paddles, and believe that whatever paddle you choose, make sure it’s properly sized and learn to use it well. This is something I try to get across to each and every student.
There are many valid reasons some choose to use the Greenland paddle. As a paddle-maker, if I had chosen to mention some of these reasons I would have crossed the line into commercialism. In that case I would have made sure to be a bit more obvious about my interests in the matter.
Again, no sarcasm or commercial intent intended, only humor.
Have a good day.
Bill
Lumpy Paddles
am I a friend?