www.lendal.com
Dogmaticus
Generic question.
Just saying European paddles or Greenland paddles is very generic in scope. There are just so many choices for both that have advantages and disadvantages in regard to paddling style, conditions and use.
You might be better in refining your search here by starting a new post defining your preferable paddling style/requirements.
My $.02
I have both. I use GP’s mostly (95% of the time), but there are times when I use a euro.
I make all of my own GP’s, so I have no real reference for you for a commercial paddle. I find them to be better for me going upwind than an EP, mostly because I can’t paddle feathered (And wouldn’t even if I could) for long without major arm pain, and find rolling, sculling and bracing easier with the GP.
I have an old Werner whitewater paddle that I use in WW, and for screwing around in my sea kayaks, and a Lightning Offshore EP, which I really like. The Lightning sculls and rolls great for an EP because it’s a flat curved blade with no dihedral, and even braces well with the back of the blade. I use it primarily for a change of pace, and also for paddling in heavy currents and tidal races. The GP works fine for current, but the EP makes quick moves a little easier. The Werner is great for surf, and for quick moves, but it’s a little torquey, and rough on my shoulders because of its big blades. The Lightning has narrow blades for an EP, which is probably why I like it.
So, I guess my answer is try both. Get some good tips on how to use them correctly, and decide which YOU like best. It may not be what I like best.
good post NM
I’ll give you at least $.03…
…for such fine advice, Wayne!!
Don’t underprice your opinions!!
Scott L
First GPs
Some first GP carving attempts are not the best examples to rate GPs by, or to learn with. Particularly if carved by someone with zero experience and exposure to these paddles.
Having used them a while, and seeing/handling many, increases the odds of carving something that’s a bit better than “a 2 x 4 with a little whittling”.
Sure, the work is simple enough, but then there’s material selection/availability, understanding sizing issues, and having a feel for how the various cross section shapes interact and can vary and what makes for a good paddle something else again…
I recommend buying/borrowing a while before carving.
Yeah - Sort of explains the dislike…
… when you add the the stroke was limited to some narrow misinterpretation, and the rolling is comparing GP vs. Euro for a “quick” WW style roll like CtoC…
Go figure!
My wing makes for a crappy snow shovel in S FL too.
Nothing’s for everyone - and it’s fine if someone prefers euro for whatever reason (and Kallistes are really nice paddles) - but I still gotta wonder what these GPs are too. Self made with no GP exposure/experience or something decent from a good carver that regularly paddles with GP?
Comments like this* seem to almost always have underlying quality/sizing issues - and/or use issues (forcing euro habits and/or the low angle BS) - that didn’t give the paddler a chance to have a decent outcome with the GP.
Not saying either is superior in any general sense - all have advantages is certain situations.
EP vs GP vs Wing (general)
Most people are paddling relatively short distances in mostly mild conditions at around 3kts where it barely matters what the paddle is anyway. The performance and technique issues can become secondary concerns. More about feel/look/price - peer groups…
Most are also doing this casual paddling in wider beam kayaks of 24"+ ( which includes Rec, Rec SOT, crossover/touring, WW, & Surf) where regardless of intensity of the activity the euros in all their myriad form are really the best/only choice anyway!!!
IMO - The EP/GP/Wing debate really only apples to sub 23-24" beam sit-in kayaks (narrow SOT = ski = wing) - and really matters most as you get even narrower (where wing and GP both come into their own for similar reasons) - and when engaged in uses beyond that casual stuff outlined above.
Race/fitness kayaks with rudders = obviously wing. Traditional SOF - pretty obvious the traditional paddles will suit them best.
That leaves the only real gray area: Sea kayaks. For some a wing is a good choice in a sea kayak (depends on use & user), but for most a Euro or GP will be better for general purpose use. This GP/EP overlap makes sense, as commercial sea kayaks tend to be a blend of Greenland and WW thinking (volumized for Western paddlers/expedition loads).
From there factor in where and how you paddle and it’s pretty straightforward (even with the large performance overlap and similarities for general use) what the priorities are, what tradeoffs are acceptable, and what paddle features offer the best benefits to match.
If you’re in a sea kayak doing mostly the short/calm/slow type paddling - get whatever feels nicest and looks good to you (or use a couple for variety). The performance and technique issues remain secondary and that are many nice EP and GP options that fit the bill.
Last comment nailed it Tripp! NM
Or take Don Beale’s class
Don’t know what he charges now but I paid $40 for his GP-carving class at the 2005 SSTIKS. Everybody came out of there with his/her own GP.
Anyone Mentioned This?
When my euro paddle makes contact with the deck of my boat it scratches the hell out of the finish. My Greenland paddle does not.
While we’re stepping on toes… some folks are fixing ugly sections of pvc to their decks to address the euro problem. Did I say “ugly”? Should I say “clutter”?
Clutter?
– Last Updated: Jan-08-08 10:08 AM EST –
Not sure where you've seen that PVC pipe mounted on other boats, but it is way away from being in the way of any functional rescues on my boat.
The PVC piping is a functional solution for stashing and easily restashing a Euro. If this thread is going to turn into an argument about aesthetics, we might as well start a debate on ugly versus pretty colors. Or rolling versus flat chart cases, etc.
(Later add) As above, I tend to use both and appreciate both. Just don't see a good reason for a reasonable question to become a bash.
Kids - lets play nice…
…we are all about paddling no matter the equipment used or style practiced.
I think both sides of the coin are cool, useful, and aesthetically pleasing! (though I misspelled it!)
Johnny - don’ pull Peggy’s pigtails and Peggy, pull that Euro paddle out of Johnny’s bum now!
Scott
are you sure you used the search
or did you just say you did so you wouldn’t get flamed. Come on we’ve all done it… I performed a search and got a gazillion.
Make sure you set the drop down filter to search ALL MESSAGES.
Sorry
– Last Updated: Jan-08-08 4:24 PM EST –
How's yer toe? Hope it's not broken.
Now Celia! How could a woman with a beautiful lugged steel Waterford have ugly pvc pipes stuck on her boat? Tell me it ain't so!
Dang. Did I step on another one?
sorry
sorry
(insert smiley face here)
Sorry back
I likely over-reacted. I am increasingly reminded that retirement coming soon is a good thing for everyone around me.
Even more apologies for getting cranky with someone who remembered I have a lugged steel Waterford. Forest green by the way, and the package with the slightly extended bottom line and caliper brakes which I find absolutely gorgeous after I realized how well they work.
Now - I have to get my time back so I can kayak and play music and ride the poor neglected dear.
GP & C-to-C
– Last Updated: Jan-08-08 5:29 PM EST –
"GP vs. Euro for a "quick" WW style roll like CtoC"
GPs do work for C-to-C. (It's possible that you meant that.)
How do you store a spare greenland
paddle? Oh yeah, you don’t stowe a spare greenland paddle, you stowe a spare storm paddle.
I assume that you’re referring to stowing a spare euro paddle when referring to the pvc pipe clutter on the foredecks of boats solving the “euro problem”.
They all work, sure
But a GP can be used in so many ways - and a quick textbook CtoC really isn’t using it to best advantage - at least not for comparing a GP to euro in general.
Point was just that certain styles and habits can limit the experience with a GP and subsequent opinions.
Use both GP & Euro
I’ll chip in here and say Euro 2 piece on front deck ans GP on back.
This is my main set for day and trip paddles. For me it’s nice to change paddles at different times. The GP has a different paddling technique so less emphasis on muscle groups involved (thats my perception) . This is good for long day paddles where also the GP seems less tiring than the wide blade Euro. GP, great in the wind. Paddling a skeg boat means the easy sliding action to extend the sweep on a GP heps to turn. Its a fluid feel using it. Carved mine from www.carvegp.com