I thought I remembered your name - I just checked back and it ended up with your having recently bought an Impex Force 4. (nice ending)
I know that pool size or local policy might be an issue, but I found it much easier to learn in my own boat. Unfamiliar boat plus new and unfamiliar (and for me very very uncomfortable) skill was too much - I needed at least the boat to be familiar.
So - what boat are you learning in? A loaner WW boat or your Force 4?
(I would be tempted to join the chorus here about going for a different roll given that you have a sea kayak, though if you are feeling close it is more improtant to get one to start with than to worry about which it is.)
When you capsize you’re upside down, an unenviable place to be. The goal is to get back in the original position–rightside up. How you do that is up to you. Unfortunately you can’t do it by magic. The way I see it, the options are limited by nature–basically you only have two–(i) to push yourself back up, the same as you would if you had the boat on the lawn, or (ii) to pull the boat back under you. (Or some combination of the two.) To measure how “hard” each kind of roll is, imagine doing it in reverse; in other words, imagine going from rightside up to upside down THAT WAY: In the C-to-C, fall into the water on your side. In a deck-back roll, lie down on the back of your deck and then from there roll over into the water. Doing this should show that the deck-back roll is “quieter”/requires less work. To REALLY see this, try this little experiment: Hold a raw egg against the side of your head and then try the experiment above: (i) Fall straight over sideways into the water and let your head and egg hit. (Make sure your pool allows raw egg yoke in it first.) Then (ii) try the back-of-the-deck roll. Odds are the second, but not the first, will leave no yoke in the water. This roughly measures how much force you are hitting the water with in each roll, and conversely, how much work is required to come back up out of the water with each roll.
The real key, as I now see it, is not PUSHING YOURSELF UP WITH YOUR UPPER BODY, but pulling the boat UNDER YOU. The trick is how to do it. The only way I can think of requires your hips. None of the names to describe this motion sound very good to my ear: You’re hips don’t “snap”; that sounds like leaves you with BROKEN HIPS! You’re hips CERTAINLY don’t explode! That would leave you with a mess to clean up. Whatever you call it, the goal is to get the boat UNDER you and yourself ontop.
How “explosive” does this act need to be? Well, … back to your lawn. On the lawn you could do it as slow as you want because the ground is solid. In water, on the other hand, the act needs to be executed with some authority. Otherwise you just sink back down where you can’t breath.
That’s how I’m looking at it these days. Sorry for such a long-winded acount. At least I’m in good company on this thread for “longwindedness”.
as an afterthought I don’t know anyone who can to a roll with “hip snap” alone. There has to be a paddle/hand/fist/elbow … SOMETHING to get a purchase on the water. It would be fun to see some of the rolling experts do it with their hands on the hull (i.e. with hip snap alone)!
(The diff between a straitjacket roll and hands on the hull may be fairly little.)
The one part of a roll that I could do well early on, and redefined how I did it several times while during the VERY long time it took for the rest of the action to come along, was the lower body part. Each round was a narrower focus on the exact muscle groups involved, all that. So by the time I could have a paddle in my hand and not sabotage the roll, I had a huge snap/lift/whatever on my right.
But as above it is not always easy for a lot of people to get, and I do think it is a tougher motion for guys. However you get there is good.
As to power, as a result of my lurching progress on the first side, I didn't start on the left for probably too long. So I ended up, and still am when I'm away from it for long enough, as a study in contrasts.
While both sides basically function if I manage my anxiety, if I am in hairy stuff I would MUCH rather be able to recover on my right. The power I can pull up on that side can overcome stuff that still takes more help from the paddle on the left, and it just plain feels more secure.
You’re right "I also cannot agree at all that rolling is a less basic or fundamental skill for sea kayakers simply because the average number of capsizes is less for Sea than WW. "
Of course you’re correct. It’s my fault. I didn’t mean it to be that rolling is less neccessary for sea kayaking. What I meant to say was it’s “perceived” to be less urgent.
The reason I say that is, for WW boaters, their first capsize tend to happen before the end of their first season. So it’s “perceeved” to be a basic skill. If only to avoid the hassle of having to swim ashore and dump out the boat repeatedly. So it doesn’t take much persuasion to get a beginner WW boater to sign up for a roll class.
You’re also quite right to point out the LEARNING of rolling turns out to be one of the best skill pratice. There’s never any doubt in my mind about that. In fact, even without actually “getting” the roll, the pratice itself can be still very helpful. And that goes for both WW and sea kayak.
no more difficult for sea kayak… My big surprise the last 6 months was finding that many white water boats are harder to roll than some sea kayaks.
All these years I thought that rolling was taught in ww boats because they were easier to roll. I insisted on learning in my own (sea) kayak as I wanted to be sure I could roll the boat I would likely to be in when I capsized.
The last few months I’ve been playing with white water boats and so far have found only one (Pirouette S) that rolls easier than my Elaho or Romany. All of the others I’ve thusfar tried take more to roll.
Outfitting? I found although different boats roll differently, boats that don’t fit don’t roll well at all!
When I rent WW boats, the shop usually offers to fit me snuggly via foams and airbags. Some WW fleet boats have build in air pads because that’s what a rental boat needs. When I rent a sea kayak? I was just handed a boat and paddle gear, that it!
So, my experience in renting boats so far is I can roll all WW boats but only SOME sea kayaks.
Misconceptions with long boats I’m just telling this story for fun for a minute. I hope that’s ok. Most of the pool sessions I go to are very much dominated by WW people. When I first started, inevitably people would ask me if it was difficult to roll my boat, it being so long and all (Tempest 180 at the time.) I’d give them a sly look and say, “well, I never tried rolling it end over end, but it rolls fine the narrow way.” Big smile. They also wonder about rolling with my skinny paddle (GP.) I’ve built more camaraderie letting people try rolling my long boat and try my GP. They’re amazed how easy it is. Great fun.
I’d take that challenge… Rolling without using arms is pretty simple in certain boats. Here’s a video of me doing “ragdoll rolls” which basically is basically rolling with a limp body. http://www.wisconsinpaddlers.org/videos/ragdollrolls.mpg
Oh and since then, I have been able to successfully straitjacket roll several times although not in that particular boat. A straitjacket roll is actually a fair bit harder than the ragdoll roll since your center of gravity is slightly lifted by the orientation of your arms.
The timing of the snap/twist matters a lot. For me,the perfect time to 'explode' is when I get my head way up near the surface and get my paddle at 90 degrees to the boat. You're bending your torso way one direction then quickly bending it the other direction. Pressure against the paddle is like a microsecond after the beginning of the snap.
Think "Cock my body way left, then explode to the right."
If it helps you, the absolute last thing I 'got' with the roll was the snap/twist. Again, you can roll without it by keeping your head way back.
If in a WW boat… Beg to differ - there are some WW boats in which a full layback roll as described (head on/near the back of the deck) is actually tougher than in a newer design sea kayak with a low rear deck. My Piedra is rated to be a brainlessly easy boat to roll, and overall it is, but frankly our old DS Necky Elaho and our Romany take less lower body muscle and rotation for a full layback with, at least at my height of 5’4". You really notice this when you slow the roll down.
Some WW boats come up easier if you are a little bit more forward, and some of the newer ones are a bear to roll in any fashion compared to an easy-rolling sea kayak
Unfortunately, though still a guess, it appears that BigNate is learning in a WW boat rather than his own Force 4. So the details of what he is in may matter a bit more - for ex is it an older river runner or slalom boat - for what kind of roll will be the flat-out easiest. It may be that the pool involved won’t fit an 18 ft boat, but having realized he has this boat it’d be nice if he could hook up with someone from a solid sea kayaking background. My guess is that it would be well-suited to learning a roll with a paddler-friendly aide like a GP.
Perceptions OK, so WW paddlers learn to roll because it’s easier/faster/safer than swimming/dumping. How’s that any different for sea kayaking where rolling is also easier than same, or doing other recoveries and pumping out on water…
From the favorite sayings thread:
"There are three kinds of men:
The ones that learn by reading.
The few who learn by observation.
The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves."
Given this, one can understand why so many wait and let urgency to dictate action - but this first hand experience mentality obviously has it’s drawbacks.
Urgency/need is the smaller component of rolling’s value for sea kayakers, and perceptions about “urgency” determining it’s usefulness and when to take action is what we need to eradicate. It fosters the wrong attitudes. Fertile ground for lame excuses about not “needing” to, not being able to justifying time/effort to learn, getting around to it someday…
Even for those people the urgency does move to action - it makes things seem more critical and stressful that is optimal for learning.
Rolling is for the LAZY - so it’s crazy when people are too lazy to learn!
Anyone who actually spends a decent amount of time doing any other self rescue techniques (enough to get proficient/reliable) and doesn’t find that doing all that work makes rolling look a whole lot more appealing - is a masochist. People who don’t do this rescue practice, what’s your deal? Think you’re naturally lucky or something? Never heard of Murphy’s Law?
Try… … rolling a SOT with thigh straps or a lap belt sometime. Not all that hard, but it you are dependent on a tight glove-like fit you may be in for a shock.
My SOF rolls whether I have have active 7 point contact as snug as any WW boat (both feet, both thighs, both sides of hips, and butt or back) or with pressure on just one thigh under masik feet off the brace, and otherwise being limp as a rag doll.
This is the way I felt rolling my Tsunami X-1 - which showed me how slack things can be and still work. Even with belt cinched tight as I could sitting upright - I would hang loose when inverted and had to push back with feet to get the belt to snug up and give me something to drive against. My looser fitting QCC with no padding beyond two small 1/2" flat pads under the keyhole bumps is the same - works locked in, or with just “rolling knee” actively engaged and everything else “whatever”.
IMLE&PO - Full contact is not needed in a sea kayak (and many other types) - contact where the motion/energy is transfered will do.
I’m no doubt a bit biased as I expect the same outfitting to work for long fitness paddles, touring flat or bumpy, and rolling sessions. Sardine cans don’t fit the bill for me.
Yep, Force 4 Sorry for the delayed response, I’ve been tied up with work the past several days.
Celia, I did purchase a Force 4 this past fall, and I did use it in my rolling class. The class is advertised for both WW and seakayakers, although the ratio between the two was something like 10:1. The pool is quite large, but I felt like a shark surrounded by minnows in my 18’ boat.
The biggest problem I had with the C-to-C was gaining a proper appreciation for the role of the paddle versus hip-snap. Even with just a little bit of air in it, I felt like the paddle float gave me enough bouyancy that I could rely largely on the paddle to bring me up. Take away the paddle float, though, and my paddle dove too rapidly for me to get enough “traction” to roll all the way up. The instructor commented that I really needed to rely primarily on hip snap, commenting that one could easily hand roll a narrow boat like the Force with a really good hip snap.
see post above Celia - Not sure if you’ll see it otherwise because of the nesting nature of this message board, but as I noted above, I did use my Force in my rolling lesson.
Frankly, I was a bit put off by the very WW-centric feel of the class. When I spoke to the owner of the school, he indicated that my fiancee and I (who both took the class) would be in a group comprised only of seakayakers with an instructor who is primarily a seakayker (a guy we’ve taken lessons from before).
When we showed up at the class, though, chaos reigned and we got stuck in a group comprised of 1 other seakayaker (who had never used a sprayskirt or done a wet exit) and 2 WW guys, with a WW instructor who had admittedly only done a bit of seakayaking.
why does it matter? You roll a whitewater boat the same way you roll a sea kayak so as long as the instructor knows what he’s doing, it really should make much of a difference.
I didn't see your post about using your Force 4 partly due to the nesting, partly due to a late night.
Not having been there, I don't think anyone can really say the instructor was off base. It is likely that you, like most of us starting out to learn a roll, need to develop a stronger/more flowing lower body response regardless of what kind of roll. In the early stages of getting the snap or thigh lift or whatever, a paddler usually will have one that is either too weak or has too little follow-thru. So the boat will start up but you won't have enough going to finish coming upright without dropping huge weight down on the paddle about halfway up. That is something that is easy enough to fix early and can be very hard to retrain later on. So the instructor wants you to get it now - that's good.
But if he doesn't have much experience with sea kayaks, he may not realize how effortlessly a good sea kayak like yours will perform a back deck roll. It goes to the necessity of learning a CtoC roll rather than another I guess, and maybe the instructor's ability to focus on you. I imagine the guy who showed up not having ever done a wet exit took some extra concern.
Maybe to get more of a sense of things, how did your fiance do? While women more often show issues related to claustrophobia than guys in these classes, we have some distinct physical advantages in weight distribution and flexibility that make for an easier time with the hip snap part. Did she feel that she was making some progress there?
Oh - and if you get the sea kayaking coach, check with him/her on how they feel about incorporating work with a GP. It automatically lends itself to extension, and desn't have the diving blade complication of a Euro paddle. Get to the Euro post-haste, but the GP removes some paddle management issues so that you can focus on what is happening with your lower body.
And I looked back at your original post, wanted to get back to this part of your question "..rolls in sea kayaks that look much more graceful than explosive. Is that just a product of good form, or is there something else going on here?" A sloow perfectly round roll is a heck of a lot easier to do in a sea kayak than in a planing hull WW boat because of the hull shape. And the prettiest of them are a product of great boat control all the way thru the rotation, and good enough form to stay out of the way of the boat's motion.