Fast Kayak Suggestions Please

Advice
#21

no, no, still waiting…

– Last Updated: Jun-23-04 4:34 PM EST –

Now, I know what it is to be waiting for a baby... :D

If speed within Seak Kayak (USCA Category) is what someone is looking for, the Isthmus is a awesome boat, and not expensive at all. In full carbon (35/40lbs), it is about $ 1700/1800 quite inexpensive compared with other carbon sea kayak.

As Frank said, it is a bit more specialized than most Sea Kayak, but having already a Sea Kayak, I would take the time to get used to a faster boat.

Anyway, before buying anything, you have to decide in which category you want to race. At that point, you will realize that there are not some many boats out there that worth to spend a couples of grands.

These are the "USCA" categories:

1. Recreational: any single kayak, sit-on-top, or surfski with a maximum overall length of 16', and a 4" waterline beam of at least 22"

(I don't know any good boat for this category)


2. Sea Kayak: any single kayak, sit-on-top, or surfski with a maximum overall length of 18', and a 4" waterline beam of at least 8.5% of length, and an overall beam of at least 10% of length, 40 pound minimum weight, bulkheads plus hatches fore and aft, with the exception of pre-year 2000 models, in which case they may have airbags in lieu of hatches and bulkheads.

For this category, I would go for any of these QCC 700, Isthmus, or Epic 18.


3. Touring: any single kayak, sit-on-top, or surfski with a maximum overall length of 20', and a 4" waterline beam of at least 18"

For this, EFT, Mako XT, and some other Surf Skis such as the FX, Molokai II, Dolphin.


4. Unlimited: any single kayak, sit-on-top, or surfski except ICF

For this, I would go in this order: Mako Mill, UX, Huki S1-X, Mark 1.
The Mark 1 sounds like a really good choice because it is fast but not as tender as the Mako, UX, or S1-X.

Choose the category, and then, pick your boat.

Regards,
Iceman

#22

Hey, Frank
I wasn’t able to see the picture. Maybe, the link is broken…



By the way, it is time to start thinking about the next B&B. I hope to see you on the Isthmus this time…



Regards,

Iceman

#23

Hope you’re not…
waiting on my boat. :wink: Being in Florida, I figure you’re waiting on the S.A. shipment to Venturesport. I’ve got a Mako coming too (hey, but then I’ve got to wait for it to be sent to TN!).



Why didn’t you show up for the Ultra Marathon back in March? There was a nice (%#$@*^!) 20 mph headwind all day…maybe next year in the Mako? BTW, my watertribe ID is Huki.



Just wondering if you got anything special done to your Mako? I just got a 'glass version and had them put a hatch on it that opens to the hull (they can put in hatch compartment too but I passed). Grey with red ends and white cockpit.

#24

Side note on USCA classes

– Last Updated: Jun-24-04 12:52 AM EST –

The Q700 does not make the USCA Sea Kayak class, as it is infinitesimally over the 10% overall ratio (at 9.8130841121495327102803738317757%). It does met the overall length requirement, and the more performance oriented 8.5% waterline ratio. The EPIC gets by as it has an extra .4" ABOVE waterline - a K1 inspired flare to meet the width ratio and not impact speed. Designed at the cutting edge of the spec - just what one would expect from a K1 Gold medalist influenced design!

Problem is that overall ratio has nothing to do with performance, and such Olympic oriented hair splitting to limit the designs has no place in the sea kayak class. Clearly the Q700 and EPIC 18 should be in the same class - but USCA Kayak apparently has a lot of Epic 18 owners that for some reason don't want to update this spec to match the others (actually it was - and they brought the old spec back to appease them).

There is also a Winters designed strip boat (very fast - right enyvyabull & canunut?! Sorry, can't remember what you named it) that was designed to this max this spec as well, with similar features to the EPIC. While a Q700 would offer both some competition, I really doubt that it is faster than either of these two boats (probably slower given the difference in original design intent) and I cannot understand the insistence on keeping the 10% overall ratio. Removing it does not hurt either of these boats.

This is not just a Q700 issue. The 10% rule also cuts out other popular "sea kayaks" like the Nigel Foster Legend, the EddyLine Falcon 18, and perhaps the classic "sea kayak" - the VCP Nordkapp. Again, all slower than and EPIC 18 or the strip boat - and all obviously not belonging in a higher class.

The current spec freezes design and forces everyone into very few hulls (currently 2) if they want to be competitive in the Sea Kayak class. At the same time USCA Kayak says it wants to increase participation and be more inclusive. I don't see such a narrowly defined class as helping that. They'd get a lot more paddlers interested in racing that have sea kayaks (and who might them move up toward unlimited) if they could race in their existing boats than if they have to go out and buy boats to just race in.

Why not just be honest and call the classes what they really are:

1. WSBS T-Bolt & Racing Ski class (I blame the lack of kayak choices in unlimited on market forces -not USCA. No one seems to want to put the time and money into something to give the T-Bolt a run - so skis will continue to increase.)*

2.WSBS EFT class (with this boat dominating half because of market limits for fast tourers giving it no real contender - half because of class limits/breaks that keep it on top)*

3. EPIC 18 class (unless Envyabull & Canunut start up a mold)

4. Short & fat boat class

*My hat is of to Mr. Bushnell for his excellent and rightfully successful designs. It's certainly not his fault they have no real competition.

Other than USCA races, all this won't matter - but the sea kayak spec sucks. Various emails about this many months ago clued me in to a side of USCA I really don't understand and soured me to the whole "organization". I realize every class spec will have to cut off somewhere - but by simple removing overall ratio (which has no link to performance) they could have a much better one.

---------

Hey Ice, does FCPA use the USCA kayak specs or their own? I'd bet your Isthmus fits pretty well in anyone's specs - and soon you'll be in unlimited and class cutoffs won't matter at all.

#25

HEY, ICE, VIE GEHTS?
Had to laugh about your comment about the B&B -YOU want to see ME on the ISthmus…??? Hell, man, I -I -wanna see me on it…!!! LOL!



Don’t know what happened to the link -but try this:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/119098238/155677240ZaPbaI



Or perhaps this one:

http://community.webshots.com/user/paddlecataloger

then choose the “FL Keys Paddlefest-The B&B 2004” album, the go to the 2nd page. That’s you preparing for a test run. I used this shot because it’s the best angle to show your fine setup.



Think maybe I’ll give the I another try this weekend… I really like that boat, maybe irrationally so, but sometimes I wonder why in the world I bought it if I have so much of a problem paddling the dang thing…



Ah yes -I know, I know -gotta spend butt time in it so I can use it, in MANY different types of weather and water, to



Paddle On!



-Frank in Miami

#26

You made me laugh, too.
In that picture, I look like a “Ninja” :smiley: (the flu was killing me…)



The problem with the Isthmus is that you have quite a few boats to choose from…

Anyway, this is the best time to get used to tender boats. Down here, it is so “hot” that a swim is always great.



Regards,

Iceman

#27

Don’t worry be happy!
The boat I ordered is a carbon inside and clear kevlar outside, black cockpit, and also red ends.



A hatch is a great option, but when I ordered, I was looking for the lightest layout in vacuum bagged without gelcoat, so I did not want to add any extra weight.



For the Ultra Marathon, I was ready, and I was more afraid of a tailwind than a headwind because of those little sails that Chief allows, and I don’t use them.



However, the West Coast is way colder than here in the South East, so I needed a drysuit. When I put the numbers together, drysuit, hotels, driving, etc. etc., I needed almost a grand, so I spent the money buying a SpeedStroke. I truly missed not to be there, but in the long run, I think that the machine was an awesome buy.



The problem with using the ski is the lack of storage. If I go next year, I will use the Isthmus because of that.



Regards,

Iceman

#28

USCA specs
I thought that the QCC makes the Sea Kayak class. In the touring class with the EFT and some skis, it is too tough for the boat.



The constant changes in the USCA specs makes everyone crazy. I hope they will stick with the last one for several years, so the manufactures have the time to do changes over the years.



Personally, those changes and the impossibility of using a wing in the Sea Kayak category pushed me to the unlimited class.



Yes, The FCPA use the USCA specs, but they allow any kinds of paddles. Anyway, most most people race in the touring class.



The “Envyabull & Canunut” boat for some people is a great option. That boat is really fast, and maybe one of the fastest.



However, someone has to have the time to build the boat. Personally, If I spend two/three months building, I won’t be able to touch the wanter neither the gym, so for me is not an option.



Regards,

Iceman

#29

Hey, kudzu
Don’t stop biking. It is great cross-training exercise for paddling. During the last five weeks, I have done about 400 miles without overtraining my upper body.



Ok, where I bike, there are no dogs, but some drivers are even worse :smiley:



Hope you feel better now,

Iceman



PS: If you decide to get a ski, don’t forget the Mark 1, several paddlers talk very high of that boat.

#30

Mako millenium
I want to see the look on your faces when you crank up that Mako for the second hour in a race with just a little bit of bounce in it. I did the Charles river race fine, but the last race I did had nagging beam waves that caused all kinds of havoc when I started to get tired. It is a boat with a mean learning curve and a demand for strength within balance. The Mark 1 is much more tame and for many paddlers a faster boat. I have now gotten to the point that I am comfortable paddling the MAko at 80% or less and look for beamy seas to practice. It is more fun than you can imagine going with the waves, it just flies. A fantastic boat, but not for everyone.



No one has mentioned the Nelo Razor, which at 17’ and 20.5" beam fits the kayak class. It also comes with two hatches. It is alot more tippy than most kayaks like the 700. I had a 600 and it is a very fine and fast boat. Liked it better than the 700.

#31

Tipsy, tricksy kayakses
I’m loving the Mako, but it is a demanding ride. I’m about three months into it now and getting more comfortable, but I’m barely scratching the surface of what that boat can do. Just did my first downwind run on a decent tradewind day a couple of weeks ago. Even with way too much bracing and way too many missed waves, it put a large grin on my face. When you hit it right, it just flies.

#32

Sitting Time,

– Last Updated: Jun-23-04 11:54 PM EST –

Seawave, you are such a great paddler that in no time you were racing with the Mako. Personally, I am willing to invest about 6 intensive months to get used to it and be able to put all the power.

Hey, isn't the Razor consider a training K1?

Regards,
Iceman

#33

Nelo Moskito FW2000
and the Inuk are their racing sea kayaks - the rest K1s, no?



Inuk is 18’, Moskito is longer.

#34

Q700 vs Q600
Thanks again, everyone. My kayak buddy has a Q700 and it seems very fast. I have never paddled the 600 and I wonder how it would compare. Since I prefer the Tempest 165 over the 170 I assume I would prefer the 600 over the 700. What do you think?

#35

Good morning Kudzu.


I am still on my first cup. Hope you are enjoying yours.



What are your stats?



I am 5’-9" and weigh 150 pounds, and Phil at QCC suggested the 700, which I did get, and it fits me like a glove.

Nanci is 5’-2", 122 pounds, and got the 600, but it does not fit her good at all. She is constantly adding foam to the cockpit, and just can’t seem to get it right.



We might be down your neck of the woods for some paddling within the next month, (if I get through this hernia operation OK next Wednesday), and we could bring both yaks and let you try them out.

I think the place is Falls Lake, but right now I am not sure

Cheers,

JackL

#36

Good Morning, Jack
I’m loaded up with coffee. Any more and I won’t be able to work my fingers. I’m on vacation this week so I get to sit and chat some.



I’m 5’9’ and since my crash I’ve dipped below 160 pounds. My shoulder is kinda beat up right now. I hope I can paddle soon. Fire me off an email when you get your plans firmed up. There is a nice lake very close to me. Maybe we could go trade boats around for a while. Ever paddle a Tempest 165? I’m just past Greensboro. More like Burlington.



Good luck with your surgery recovery. I’m sure you’ll do fine.



Rex

#37

Heart Rate while kayaking
Even if I could get my HR up to the same levels kayaking that I do cycling, there is no way that I, repeat I - as in me, could sustain such a level for very long. I know this because I have tried and I do use a HR-monitor for training.



On the other hand, when I have tried rowing it is very easy to get my HR up to VO-Max, or up to 70% of VOM for a sustained workout. No problem at all. FWIW, my upper body including back, abs, shoulders, lats all that is not nearly as well developed as are my quads and hams. So just in terms of muscle mass that could be why this is so.



At our local lake there is a very active rowing club and several of the members also cycle. It is universally the opinion among this small circle that the most taxing activity from a cardio viewpoint is rowing, with swimming, running and cycling being similar to each other and slightly below rowing. Paddling a kayak at that level is way beyond the ability of any of us.



Don’t get me wrong, there is no doubt that kayaking at the highest levels is every bit as taxing as these other sports. It is just that to get to the point where it is possible to paddle at that high an exertion level is not as easily attained as is the case for cycling or running or rowing.



Regards,



Bill

#38

Makes sense
I’m just built differently too. Fat mostly! Stocky and maybe fairly muscular somewhere beneath flotation/insulation.



My last long paddle (@18 miles) I averaged over 160 for @ 3 1/2 hours. My max is 180-188 depending on formula. I have hit 192 a couple times running sprints at teh end of a longer (for me) run to get an actual max (but @ 188 is usually tops).



I like to do 155-165 on a bike for maybe an hour when I ride. I’m not sure I could dothat for 3+ (but haven’t tried either). Have done a short kayak race at 171 avg (90%) for 75 minutes - but that was when my wide heavy boat made me a stronger paddler. Have gotten weaker since in the more efficient boat - and had stopped doing any weights - and much above low to mid 160’s and the muscles don’t have it. I’m bringing some weights back into the mix now.



Heck - for an overweight (pushing middle aged) guy doing office work, I’m happy to be able to maintain 80%+ max for 3+ hours doing anything.



One reason my HR runs high is LACK of fitness as I’m carrying extra weight which puts a big drag on the system. Another is the average temps down here, which add even more strain! For me at least, it certainly has nothing to do with being at the top levels of ANY sport L

#39

More of a question…
…not a comment.

What about the CD Extreme or the CD Expedition? I’ve always drooled over them at shows but have never paddled one.

Are they also in the speed ranges of the ones mentioned previously?



ptb

#40

I’m just having fun
with you Iceman. I know you will get over the hump, and will be fast on it, too. Today I rode a beam sea from 3/4 behind in close by the shore, so I was getting refracting waves along with the ones from behind. Great practice, and I didn’t go in, but it was a true test to apply power. Here’s the thing with the Mako: Once you get used to it, thats only the beginning, then it takes time to get it up to speed. Iceman, with your weights training, you will probably have the strenth to maintain power when you get tired. Paddling a tippy boat after a while is easy, its the doing it at speed and in conditions that make it hard.



Seems to me the razor fits in the kayak class, even if it is a modified training K1. It has dual bulkheads and deck lines and its size fits the rules. someone paddled one at the Charles River kayak class. It might be a handful to paddle in conditions.



On the 600/700. I’ve paddled both. I am in the 160/5’9" weight class. the 700 is faster based on its longer waterline, but the 600 is lighter and slightly narrower at the paddle entry. In certain conditions the 600 will be faster than the 700, even with a shorter length. I loved paddling the 600, the 700 seemed wider, but proved to be a fast boat. The only thing faster is the EFT which sneaks into the kayak class for some reason.