I had a board I was standing on break and I dropped flat into the Edisto River from 10’+. I was red from head to toe and shocked tòo much to swim but floated ok.
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I’ve watched the videos and the athleticism and training to go that fast is fascinating. However, it has almost no relation to my paddling. I have raced canoes and bicycles and I no longer do either. My paddling and pedaling are now about slowing down and enjoying the sights and sounds of the great outdoors, not getting to the finish line.
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science and performance= splitting hairs.
When I go through the power phase of a stroke the boat lifts and during air time it squats.
Water is of course a fluid, this is obvious. However, velocity will change this to a degree. You’re not wrong, but in regards to performance, the blade should not cavitate or slice the water. The idea is to grab and hold the water and pull the boat through as much as possible.
So, if you belly flopped from a 100 feet, t would very much feel solid, but yes, it is still a fluid. Not really sure how scientific
absolutes relate to this discussion. I didn’t realize we were discussing science on a paddling site
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It doesn’t really matter what anyone thinks. Water doesn’t compress, it has mass, it takes time for it to move, and involving a greater surface area increases the resistance because more molecules have to be pushed out of the way. We also know that the weight of water molecules stacked will create incredible uniform pressure (please don’t explain gravity). Propellers work because the molecules of water resist moving. Consider it physics or magic, the result is the same. A paddle moves the boat. The difference between a winner and a loser is who best understands and capitalizes on the properties of water - choose wisely, and be careful of falling into the phsycological trap of “Perception is Reality”.
A question to those who say “speed isn’t everything” or “speed doesn’t matter to me!” The comm8ent has no relevance to the topic, so why . . . ? When the topic of dry suits or wet suits come up, I feel it’s irrelevant for me to comment on the topic, because I never used one, know nothing about them, and have no intention of ever using either. Joining the conversation to say I don’t like immersion gear is like attending a cigar aficionado conference to assert a distaste for cigars. You would make a point but would it really matter, especially since it’s actually a veiled criticism of anyone who does value learning how to paddle faster or more efficiently? The lack of concern about the topic means you have no standing. I welcome debate on how I approach the issue, but frankly am unconcerned that you prefer to doddle on the water. I may not surf, but the art of surfing is intriguing, and I can’t imagine joining a thread saying "I dont surf wave, I avoid them! That’s just my impression and opinion on that.
This thread is about the Fastest Kayaker in the world who apparently holds the record as the fastest kayaker in the world. Its impressive and dully noted, but after 83 posts debate the properties of water, I still have the same reaction: the guy is gifted and powerful and deserves his gold medals. His coach is brilliant for developing a strategy to exploit the paddler’s physiology so he can use every bit of power and maintain it for 1 km (.62 miles). However, I’m disappointed that related question that has direct relevant question remains unanswered: how would that strategy change for a 1 mile race, a 3 mile race, a 10 mile race, a 30 mile race.
Only a few members have been forthcoming to devulge their closely held secrets about speed. Unfortunately the topic devolves into text book discussions about the properties of water. The practical and more relevant question for me and other less experienced kayakers is how the size of a paddle blade and duration of a kayak trip in a boat that’s more than twice the weight of an Olympic kayak change technique. I learned quite a bit from the series of videos, and welcome more, but the important question for me remain.
Cadence would have to change, I can’t imagine even a highly trained and athletically gifted human being able to continue that cadence over extended distances. Although, top canoe racers will maintain 70-80 strokes per minute over miles and hours. Since cadence is so relevant to speed and if your desire is to maintain a higher cadence longer it would be advantageous to use a smaller blade rather than larger. Of course other parts of the paddle would have an impact too, e.g. blade shape and handle length.
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This topic is funny. A lot of misunderstanding about physics and wing paddle stroke. The experts are right about locking the paddle and the bow rising. Once you get fast enough, you see the light. Until then it sounds like voodoo, but I can confirm its all true whether you see it or not.
If youre not familiar with a wing (as in have spent hundreds of hours mastering it), it seems goofy.
Doing the wing paddle stroke with maximum efficiency is extremely difficult. I paddle with some excellent racers, and they are still barely in the top 100 at The Gorge. The difference is the Pros have perfect wing technique (like shown in this video) combined with 45cm boats (16.9 inch beam) and professional level training.
You need all 3 to be fast (good technique, skinny boat, aerobic conditioning). Remove any leg of the stool and you become slower. (although I have seen many pros paddling beginner boats just leave people in the dust, so technique, wave reading, and conditioning trump a skinny boat any day)
As races extend in length, stroke rate slows somewhat, but stroke rate is proportional to speed, so if youre averaging 6-7mph during a 6-12 mile race, you will naturally have ~60spm cadence just due to the distance traveled per stroke.
The crazy thing is the 100m sprint averages around 12-13mph! 200m is closer to 11-12mph average. Crazy fast.
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@davbart I’m intrigued by how he’s smacking the paddle hard against the water. Apparently, the water is fluid enough to provide some cushion, yet it has enough resistance to compression that it drive the boat forward. The combination of boat, training, conditioning, paddle technique, and genetics works for him. I dread thinking about the long term effect of the stain on the body.
Lacking the resources, commitment, training opportunities and, in too many cases, the pyhsical capacity to use the technique, we are left to figure it out on our own. Years ago, I took a power approach, but no longer have the ability. Its hard to find other kayakers who have an interest in experimenting with different techniques. My current approach is far easier on the body, but I can’t judge how it compares to my previous aggressive approach. Part of the pleasure is the process of figuring it out. In the end I guess it doesn’t matter unless youre trying to outrun a severe storm.
@MCImes nicely explained! It still leave me scratching my head, but you made a valuable point. It isn’t up to anyone to tell you how to make it work. One hundred people can access to the same equipment, training and information. Genetics can be a deciding factor, but determination and an open mind is equally important.
My exposure to training others in certain disciplines reminds me that the person who has the desire to observe and put it all together will improve. The art is in how a person seeks information, interprets it accurately, then uses it.
It’s my challenge to figure it out. Not sure if it was your intention, but you answered my question. If someone wans it bad enough, they’ll figure it out. My boss had a standand line for performance ratings: Strives for mediocrity and consistently fails to achieve objectives. I was proud that he felt I rated highly in that category.
Yes, this is kinda the point. Proper Wing stroke, and going fast in general, doesn’t happen by accident. It requires desire, study, observation, and real-time critique of yourself.
Many people do not have the desire to master the wing stroke, go fast, or master tippy boats. Thats just fine too. But to go fast or master the wing is to dedicate yourself to the science and art of technique and balance. Definitely not for everyone.
I oscillate between going fast and slow. Tippy surfski for going fast, and a tripping canoe for putzing around. Each has its time and place.
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I’m not sure “slapping” is the proper description as much as our perception because his cadence is so high. Despite his high cadence, I think his plant/catch is very deliberate and controlled.
I oscillate between going fast and slow. Tippy surfski for going fast, and a tripping canoe for putzing around. Each has its time and place.
I love my ski and my canoe!
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There really is no mistaking the power of the wing stroke. I didn’t count the cadence, but a number around 170 was memtioned - ok! That’s more than once every half second. He’s slapping the snot out of the water and shoveling a bucket full at the end. It’s depleting all his energy in .62 miles. I need to keep energy reserve for longer distances and suffer from diminished strength and range of motion. That requires a technique that isolates the shoulder joint to prevent further damage.
My cadence is normally around 70 and goes up to 80 when I focus. The center of the paddle shaft never rises more than a few inches off the deck and follows the contour. The exit travels outward, back and slices straight up, which positions the next power blade. The exit is automatic, so full attention can be focused on making the cleanest splash free catch. The very low angle ends up with the paddle shaft level at the exit and the power blade only 24 inches above the water. A longer paddle has no impact on the paddle cycle. Increasing the angle of the plunge does increase power, but it also requires reliance on the biceps and shoulders. The increased angle also has no impact on the cycle, because the center of the paddle shaft remains close to the deck, so at the exit, the next power blade is still only 24 inches above the water. Its not a racing technique, but it relieves the pressure on damaged joints, as long as you maintain a paddler box to reduce joint movement.
Most 17 ft boats are going to hit a wall around 6.4 mph. As Craig explained, moving the seat forward increased speed potential. Another plausible suggestion is that the wing paddle is designed to perform with a higher paddle speed or load, however you prefer to describe it. I overcome the problem of overpowering the paddle by increasing speeds slowly then keeping the gliders to reduce how much the paddle slips.
The wing paddle changes a lot of things, and really makes it difficult to transfer what he’s doing to the paddling we mortal humans do. With that said, I’ve never used a wing paddle, so I really can’t speak in any detail exactly what those changes are.
If your technique works for you, I wouldn’t worry too much about changing it for speed, I’d be more worried about efficiency and comfort. Of course if you’re more efficient and more comfortable you’ll likely go farther and get there sooner.
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longer paddle will result in longer stroke if everything else stays the same, no? Longer stroke will take more time, no?
Correct again
Yes and No! It can but doesn’t have to. The catch and exit point is variable. By the way, thanks for the Olympic kayaking posts. Until I opened one of your earlier videos, I had absolutely no interest in paddle racing. How clueless! I can’t do it, but that doesn’t mean I can’t learn from it. In fact, my low angle stroke was adapted to follow a track similar to a wing paddle (the catch starts close to the boat, follows the arc, but departs on a tangent as it approaches the apex of the arc). That track avoids joint pain if I use keep a paddlers box and it makes a cleaner catch/exit.
An astute contributor noted, we mere mortals are on our own. Another contributor made me realize that in the end, its up to the paddler to have the interest and to dedicate the time to paddle efficiently. What works for me may not work for someone else. I’ve explained my perception before, but since you asked:
I don’t do high angle anymore due the shoulder, but I wouldn’t use it anyway because I don’t want to place additional stress on my joints. The high swing arch works better with a short paddle length, but it’s clearly more powerful. There’s surely a spot where the catch and exit gives the maximum power, but each person needs to figure out the effective range of motion and how to extract the most power from a stroke. The longer the stroke, the slower the cadence, and the further you go outside of your power range. A coach can guide you, but ultimately, your average speed will tell you if you have it right.
Whether this is the right answer is up for debate, but the main difference between high and low angle is that in low angle, the catch and exit are linked, and most of the power comes from torso rotation. I’ve covered that elsewhere, so no reason to be redundant. You can understand what I mean if you sit with the paddle in your lap and rotate comfortably at the waist, you’ll reach the power range of your stroke. You can stretch it, but the further you stretch, the weaker the stroke becomes and the slower the cadence. It’s up to each paddler to decide on the range. The low angle approach gains efficiency in the economy of motion. When you reach the extent of your rotation, you’ve found the natural catch and exit, and they’re linked - the end of torso rotation is the exit, and the catch is directly under the front blade. Your complete focus is devoted to keeping the blade perpendicular to the water surface, gauging the speed of water rushing by and matching rotation to be slightly ahead of the water speed. Since the blade is perpendicular for a clean catch, a rythemic stroke ensures that the exit will also be perpenducular and happen just as cleanly. Therefore, your singular focus is always on the catch. If you feather, you’ll just have to divide your focus.
So now to the question of length. Since torso rotation controls the speed of the stroke, whether the paddle arc is measured at 12 feet, 10 feet or 8 feet, all three will catch and end at the same “time”. What does change is the length,or reach, of the fulcrum. However, 10 cm is 3.9 inches or 2 inches per side. The additional reach from the boat at around 45° is about 1 1/2 inches. So the length from bow to stern is roughly 3 inches. (20 cm adds 3 inches/6 inches).
The longer fulcrum length (from your hand on the shaft or loom to the tip of the blade) or a larger square inch blade adds a load to slow the cadence, but as long as you’re able to reach 80 spm, neither the length nor the surface area of the paddle is hindering your performance if you can renain aerobic. I have both a 240 cm and 250 cm and have yet to notice any appreciable difference in avg speed or attainable maximum speed between the two paddles. While the 240 cm feels more controllable, the 250 cm allows a wider grip (3.9.inches), which increases power, but more important than power is that it opens the chest to improve breathing.
After the forum discussion, I did a trip to test how the stroke perform at a higher paddle angle. Speed increased about .5 mph with a higher angle. The higher angle is recognized for having greater power. That power comes from arm, shoulder and back muscle groups. It’s important to understand that power isn’t free! Every calorie you burn is gone, and your stores are limited. The racer stores enough energy so it can be used inefficiently for short duration to go faster. Understanding the techniques and forces used by the racer helps to understand how to conserve energy. My goal is longer distances. The more efficiently and aerobically energy is used, the more that will be available for distances.
My goal is to increase my average speed by .1 mph per trip. While that might seem both a small goal and hard to measure accurately, it’s the net gain at the end of the season, as well as progress from year to year, that I use as a measure of progress. It’s worth noting that increasing the stroke angle makes the paddlers box awkward to use. Consequently, the stroke derives most of the power from the arm, shoulder, and back. I didn’t mention chest muscles because I don’t alternate push/pull, while alternating pressure on the foot pegs. I dont have to. I found that all that effort adds speed, but it takes energy that generally gets lost through overpowering the paddle blades.
This technique isn’t intended to reach high speed. That takes a method like the paddle, an efficient high angle technique. You comment about avg speed depends on whether the boat is going into or with the wind and current. I agree, but the advantage of torso rotation is that when used with a paddlers box grip, the strong high angle muscles are lock out. When confronting added resistance, that’s when I tap into the reserve energy of the rested muscle groups. Conversely, when those muscles get depleted, I find it hard to maintain the isometric tension of the paddlers box, thus the low angle isn’t efficient.
That’s how I can use a long paddle to advantage. The best part about using a higher angle in a lower stroke mode is that the longer paddle length doesn’t slow the cadence. The key is that the center of the paddle remains low as it always follows the contour of the deck. As a result, no matter how far the blade arcs or how deep it plunges, the exit ends with the paddle level and hovering near the deck. I mentioned that the catch blade is 24 inches above the water, but that isn’t accurate - it’s probably closer to 16 inches, the height of my deck, minus the draft of the kayak.
longer radius and same number of degrees for your swing or arch is a longer distance.
Longer paddles have to put more stress into your joints.
I have been using a wing paddle for around 20 years and still am not a complete master of it.
A wing paddle increased my speed by close to 30% and let to 9 state titles in marathon races. I also got a bronze medal at the Florida State Games in the 200 sprint, though there were 6 Olympic hopefuls in that race too.
I went to the USCAK Nationals once and found out I was just middle of the road there.
I also went to the World Championships once and would not even sit in a boat there, they were all a blur as they went by.
The reason is because European paddlers are not just the weird person down the street, they are National figures. Kayak and Canoe racing is a mark of national pride for all European countries.
Paddlers there didn’t just pick up a paddle and go, they got started generations ago. Most of them were in a boat before they could walk three steps, with grand parents and great grandparents teaching them and training them.
Do not ever feel bad because you think you should be able to go fast. It is a rare thing in the western hemisphere to even want to go fast in a kayak, much less to be able to do it.
I gave up saying that I was training because all of the work I did was about technique and control. I used to be able to go 10 miles in less than an hour without breathing hard. I hope to be back there again, but it is doubtful at 67.
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As with Biathlon and elite cycling.