Priorities
Speed one of the most often cited reasons for having a QCC700. It seems a very fast boat for a touring kayak.
Rough seas handling is one of the most often reasons cited for having other than a QCC.
All boats are compromises. Different boats excel at different things.
Some on this board have a QCC for speed and a Brit boat for rough seas.
Brent Reitz has a column
– Last Updated: Oct-14-04 9:54 AM EST –
in this month's issue, of the soon to be defunct Hullspeed, in which he discusses "boat speed." He advises paddlers to invest in training and stay focused on the motor, as Iceman and others here have suggested.
I don't race, but I am developing an interest in paddling for fitness. My training this past year has focused on rowing on the erg(I am training for a half marathon/marathon using a HR monitor and interval training), and weight training. I have also been working on my forward stroke and took Brent's workshop this year as well. My resting HR is in the mid 50's and I am down to 19% body fat (I am 46). My touring speed when out in my avocet is defintely becoming faster, and is easier to maintain for longer paddles.
Personally, I would just concentrate on training for now, unless you have some other compelling reason to purchase a new boat. I find it more satisfying to attribute my improvements to my training-and not the boat!
Thanks…
I knew I was going to attract mostly racers with this message, just seems to go with the territory. I’m a once-a-weekend few-hour paddler, in it mostly just to get out in the beautiful Hudson. I don’t think I’ll ever do actual “training.” I would, however, be happy to get further up or down the river, and, since life is short, if all it took to do that was a different boat, I’d think about doing that right now.
I’ve argued with Greyak about this before, Sea Kayaker considers sustained 3lb effort paddling to be a “fit” paddler, and 5lb effort paddling to be only achievable by a few. Based on the numbers in the table (Kg, of course), most people here are talking about efforts way beyond that. I seem to be right around that 3lb level now, I guess.
Mike
I think that both points that
people have made here are good: on the one hand, buying a “fast” boat alone won’t win you races. But on the other hand, some boats are definitely faster than others.
I liked the link–it ranked my Superior Kayaks Hawk #1 for 4-5 knot speed : ) Boats like the QCC700, P&H Spitzbergen, Seda Glider, or EFT are significantly faster than Hawk, however, and surfskis are faster yet.
The first year I did the Blackburn Challenge, I used my Hawk and did 4.9 knots for the 20 miles. The next two times I did it in the Spitzbergen and was .1-.2 knots faster. With some training I was .3 knots faster this year in the Spitz (I didn’t do the race officially this year, but left just after the racers and timed myself).
My experience suggests that the speed gain for a paddler of a typical sea kayak moving up into one of the speedboat class would be around 5%
But Greg Barton did the Blackburn in an Epic 18 at 6 knots, i.e. as fast as the best surf skis, which shows the truth of the “It’s the paddler, not the boat” idea as well.
Sanjay
paddlers vs. boats
it is the paddler, not the boat, that determines how quickly one is able to cover distance. having said that, a fast paddler will be faster in a fast boat. maybe we should create a new racing format with a handicap system. if you’re a great paddler, you get a 13-foot SOT that weighs 80 pounds. if you’re a weakling, you get the skis or ourtigger canoes. sounds fair, right? 
4.5 knots
I am not a strong paddler at 54 years of age but I can maintain 4.5 knots almost indefinitely in my 700. I usually only go out for 3 to 4 hours with a euro style paddle but the distance covered works out to about 4,5 knots. I have no experience with other SINKs to compare that too, though.
So True
Eventually, you reach the point where in the need for speed quest, you just can’t make a certain hull go any faster. Certainly, training reaps the biggest dividends. Fitness, especially for more marathon oriented events, is key. Stroke training is also paramount, as is skills training, and finally, experience. Interestingly, I’ve found that years of competitive cycling transfer in certain areas, namely strategy, wash hanging, etc. From what I can ascertain, kayaking and kayak racing are extremely technique oriented, probably why you see that so many paddlers deemed proficient at the sport are older; it takes time to acquire these skills, and thankfully, endurance doesn’t drop off as quickly as sheer power and recovery as you age.
I’m pleased as punch to be making the strides I seem to be. The change in boat helps, but it’s also commitment to training and acquisition of skills that makes the biggest difference. Case in point, last race the winning paddler simply paddled away from me; couldn’t catch him. He was older, and had a similar boat-he was just flat out better, or in better condition, or both. In that same race, I put a good amount of time on a Westside Thunderbolt-to this I can only attribute fitness, intensity for duration, as its paddler had a very smooth stroke, and it was dead calm. Quite a few variables here.
I’d not put the QCC up against my Explorer in rough water handling; the Explorer seemed to scoff at darn near anything thrown at it, and make it enjoyable in the process. By the same token, I’ve recently been pleasantly surprised at what the QCC can entertain; it’s weathered some pretty challenging conditions in confused chop and swells going out on one leg of a race, and then was a hoot surfing same coming back. 
Hex,
You have become a very fast paddler no matter what you paddle!!!
By the way, have you received the FCPA newsletter? I haven’t 
Which is the “Santa Fe” river race?
Thanks,
Iceman
QCC’s in "conditions"
For the record -
the Q700 handles textured water just fine. I can keep up with mr. Kwikle and mr. Airwave - two very strong paddlers in the roughest of the rough, each paddling a nf silhoute and a cd caribou respectively.
That said, unless my qcc is carrying a load (in addition to my 200+#'s) strong winds will have the effect of pushing it around a quite a bit. I attribute this to the large amount of freeboard (hey - it was meant to be paddled fully loaded) and also the relative lack of rocker coupled with a very flat hull. The weather/leecocking is easily handled via skeg trimming, but “crabbing” is a very real problem.
as far as speed vs efficiency goes - the q700 is best appreciated when paddling at a “brisk” pace, and if you have the strength to push it hard- it will give you quite a bit of performance in return. Conversly -there is a very real ineffeciency at slower speeds, which is where a lot of folks spend most of there time (sightseeing and birdwatching and the like). I can paddle start/stop lollygagging in my vizcaya all day long without a lot of effort, whereas constant starting and stopping in the q700 tends to leave me very fatigued. If I want to eat up the miles however, there is no contest - the 700 every time.
Physics Help, Please
I never took physics in school, but I learned some as it relates to sports working in the PE department in college.
As I recall, the relevant equation is that resistance equals mass times speed cubed.
Or, it does not take 20% more effort to go 5 knots instead of 4, it takes more like 40% more effort. (Someone help me with exact numbers here)
You will probably not notice the extra knot much if you are paddling alone, but if you are paddling at 4 knots with someone who is doing 5 knots, over an hour time you will be an knot behind, and it will seem like a big difference.
Iceman,
– Last Updated: Oct-14-04 1:57 PM EST –
they changed the Suwanee River race that was supposed to be on the 24th of Oct.,, it's still on that date but closer now. Send me an e-mail and I'll reply with the info.,, I've sent you a couple e-mails,, guess you changed adresses.
HEX
Hence the drag "CURVE"
with it’s ever increasing arc - and not a linear upward climb on the drag charts.
You might also note that the drag curves often don’t force for anything over 5 knots - which is rather unfair to many of the faster boats that have and edge there.
Power to overcome
– Last Updated: Oct-14-04 3:04 PM EST –
air resistance is said to be a 3rd-power function, basically, at least at subsonic speeds. Water resistance, though, relates more to the hull-speed thing, as I understand it. Not a brick wall, but as that table I gave the link for indicates, effort really takes a turn to the sky around there, though for some boats more than others.
Since hull speed is a square-root function based on effective waterline length, it's interesting how tightly bunched most all the boats are, as to where the curve starts going up.
Problem with me is I'm not even up to that point, yet. The nominal waterline length of the Caribou is around 15 feet, using the 1.34 formula that comes out a little over 5 knots. I believe the effective waterline length would be less, since you have to allow for the slenderness of the bow, so it's probably somewhere in the high 4-knot range really. (Yes, the 'bou has one of the most exorbitant OWL to LWL differences going, well over 2.5 feet for light load).
I can always judge how fast I'm going through the water, regardless of current direction and GPS reading, because around 5mph water speed the bow wake begins to curl over and make noise. Not sure if this is an indication of approaching hull speed or just a characteristic of the Caribou hull design.
Mike
curving bow wave
– Last Updated: Oct-14-04 4:29 PM EST –
it happens while i'm paddling my canoe on flat water all the time. i'm guessing that it is an indication that you're approaching hull speed. i'm no expert on hull speed and physics, though i do make a mean lasagna
Yep
– Last Updated: Oct-15-04 2:48 PM EST –
*L*
It’s just another thing to make me
– Last Updated: Oct-14-04 5:12 PM EST –
wonder. Early in the season, I was paddling along, had been out for awhile but was moving at what I thought was a reasonable pace. Looked over my shoulder at one point and was surprised to see another yakker overtaking me. Kind of a roundish hull, not very inspired lines, plumb bow, etc. Didn't look nearly as fast as my pointy boat.
After he got a hundred feet or so ahead of me I stepped up the pace to keep up. I noticed that my boat was making this noisy bow wake, and his wasn't, in fact in the light ripple I couldn't even see a wake from his boat. He was using a GP, with a sliding stroke from time to time, but sure didn't seem to be putting much effort into it. I was keeping up for some stretches at a time but it was work.
I noticed later on when he retracted the rudder it stuck straight up in this silly way, never seen that before.
Obviously, though I wasn't familiar with them at that time, it had to have been a QCC boat. I don't think it was a 700, but may have been a 600. Just one of those experiences that has haunted me ever since...
Mike
Appearances
GP does look more effortless. More dancing less digging.
So I guess there are more QCC/GPers than I though. I know of 4 (3 FL, 1 G-lakes)- but none in NY. Are there others?
trilobite02’s wish list (hey envyabull!)
Hmm, mostly agree…
- Little less cargo room
As I use none of the space - I agree a lot could go. However, it was designed as a gear hauler not a racer.
- Lower rear deck for laybacks
With you 100% there - and fits with #1.
- angled bulkhead for easier emptying
Between this and the lower read deck I’d loose some behind seat storage - but as long as the hydration pack fits - it would be good.
- Higher foredeck for knees up paddling/rotation.
Paddling a GP, we part company on this one. The low foredeck is great with GP! I understand your desire as it relates to racing, but not being a racer I like the better fit/control I can get with it as is. With high/open setup I’d be throwing braces in stuff I can handle without paddle action at all now.
- Narrower cockpit entry in front of the coaming like the Epic has, for a closer catch.
This also sort of dovetails with #1 - as it could be worked in with the volume reduction. Better catch and less windage. As it is now, it’s still better than most touring boats except the Epic by a little.
- Rudder housing that doesn’t drag constantly in the water.
Well, seen it - and agree 100% - but don’t have that problem myself as I have a skeg.
- A real back band versus the tractor seat that feels like a baggy diaper
Took care of that after 3 paddles. Backbands are a bit personal - so maybe people should expect to have to replace this? Nothing QCC picked would make everyone happy. That seat may be OK in the wider more beginner/intermediate boats, but definitely does not belong in the 600/700.
- Optional tiller bar setup for a solid platform (I feel those Seal Line rails a flexin’…)?
Going too far now maybe. Once you do that you should also set it up for quick change overstern AND understern rudder option. Really - all this would be pretty easy to do yourself.
As for the SealLine rails, I’ll leave that to my archived comments - except to say I flexed mine right out of the boat! No more pegs - just a nice wall of foam angled 15 degrees.
trilobite02 - You should talk to envyabull - his boat addresses many of these issues (except maybe 2&3). A Winters design made to race. Right up your alley.
Me, I think I’d just tweak it into more of a fast day tripper/Brit beater - and have outfitted mine along those lines.
Curling bow wave…
…is probably due more to the shape of the hull and how it deflects water than anything having to do with hull speed. My solo canoe creates a tiny curl coming off the when moving at high speed (I can’t see it but I can hear it), but my guide-boat does not. One thing I have seen, though, when watching a great variety of boats on the water is that the stern wave always gets disproportionately large when the speed of the boat nears hull speed. That may have something to do with the fact that at hull speed, the wavelength of the bow wave matches the length of the boat, so the bow and stern waves become superimposed (creating a taller wave at the stern).
High foredeck
>4. Higher foredeck for knees up paddling/rotation.
Paddling a GP, we part company on this one. The low foredeck is great with GP! I understand your desire as it relates to racing, but not being a racer I like the better fit/control I can get with it as is. With high/open setup I’d be throwing braces in stuff I can handle without paddle action at all now.
My Inuk has a high foredeck and I occasionally paddle with a GP(my low gear in high winds). No problem. A small foam block glued below deck provides the support when needed.
Paddling with the legs up and pumping works like a charm with a GP.
Oh and here’s a few ‘high foredeck’ yaks you guys might find interesting:
http://www.sportzhub.com/ruahine/kayaks.htm
/Peter