QCC’s in "conditions"
For the record -
the Q700 handles textured water just fine. I can keep up with mr. Kwikle and mr. Airwave - two very strong paddlers in the roughest of the rough, each paddling a nf silhoute and a cd caribou respectively.
That said, unless my qcc is carrying a load (in addition to my 200+#'s) strong winds will have the effect of pushing it around a quite a bit. I attribute this to the large amount of freeboard (hey - it was meant to be paddled fully loaded) and also the relative lack of rocker coupled with a very flat hull. The weather/leecocking is easily handled via skeg trimming, but “crabbing” is a very real problem.
as far as speed vs efficiency goes - the q700 is best appreciated when paddling at a “brisk” pace, and if you have the strength to push it hard- it will give you quite a bit of performance in return. Conversly -there is a very real ineffeciency at slower speeds, which is where a lot of folks spend most of there time (sightseeing and birdwatching and the like). I can paddle start/stop lollygagging in my vizcaya all day long without a lot of effort, whereas constant starting and stopping in the q700 tends to leave me very fatigued. If I want to eat up the miles however, there is no contest - the 700 every time.
Physics Help, Please
I never took physics in school, but I learned some as it relates to sports working in the PE department in college.
As I recall, the relevant equation is that resistance equals mass times speed cubed.
Or, it does not take 20% more effort to go 5 knots instead of 4, it takes more like 40% more effort. (Someone help me with exact numbers here)
You will probably not notice the extra knot much if you are paddling alone, but if you are paddling at 4 knots with someone who is doing 5 knots, over an hour time you will be an knot behind, and it will seem like a big difference.
Iceman,
they changed the Suwanee River race that was supposed to be on the 24th of Oct.,, it's still on that date but closer now. Send me an e-mail and I'll reply with the info.,, I've sent you a couple e-mails,, guess you changed adresses.
HEX
Hence the drag "CURVE"
with it’s ever increasing arc - and not a linear upward climb on the drag charts.
You might also note that the drag curves often don’t force for anything over 5 knots - which is rather unfair to many of the faster boats that have and edge there.
Power to overcome
air resistance is said to be a 3rd-power function, basically, at least at subsonic speeds. Water resistance, though, relates more to the hull-speed thing, as I understand it. Not a brick wall, but as that table I gave the link for indicates, effort really takes a turn to the sky around there, though for some boats more than others.
Since hull speed is a square-root function based on effective waterline length, it's interesting how tightly bunched most all the boats are, as to where the curve starts going up.
Problem with me is I'm not even up to that point, yet. The nominal waterline length of the Caribou is around 15 feet, using the 1.34 formula that comes out a little over 5 knots. I believe the effective waterline length would be less, since you have to allow for the slenderness of the bow, so it's probably somewhere in the high 4-knot range really. (Yes, the 'bou has one of the most exorbitant OWL to LWL differences going, well over 2.5 feet for light load).
I can always judge how fast I'm going through the water, regardless of current direction and GPS reading, because around 5mph water speed the bow wake begins to curl over and make noise. Not sure if this is an indication of approaching hull speed or just a characteristic of the Caribou hull design.
Mike
curving bow wave
it happens while i'm paddling my canoe on flat water all the time. i'm guessing that it is an indication that you're approaching hull speed. i'm no expert on hull speed and physics, though i do make a mean lasagna
Yep
*L*
It’s just another thing to make me
wonder. Early in the season, I was paddling along, had been out for awhile but was moving at what I thought was a reasonable pace. Looked over my shoulder at one point and was surprised to see another yakker overtaking me. Kind of a roundish hull, not very inspired lines, plumb bow, etc. Didn't look nearly as fast as my pointy boat.
After he got a hundred feet or so ahead of me I stepped up the pace to keep up. I noticed that my boat was making this noisy bow wake, and his wasn't, in fact in the light ripple I couldn't even see a wake from his boat. He was using a GP, with a sliding stroke from time to time, but sure didn't seem to be putting much effort into it. I was keeping up for some stretches at a time but it was work.
I noticed later on when he retracted the rudder it stuck straight up in this silly way, never seen that before.
Obviously, though I wasn't familiar with them at that time, it had to have been a QCC boat. I don't think it was a 700, but may have been a 600. Just one of those experiences that has haunted me ever since...
Mike
Appearances
GP does look more effortless. More dancing less digging.
So I guess there are more QCC/GPers than I though. I know of 4 (3 FL, 1 G-lakes)- but none in NY. Are there others?
trilobite02’s wish list (hey envyabull!)
Hmm, mostly agree…
- Little less cargo room
As I use none of the space - I agree a lot could go. However, it was designed as a gear hauler not a racer.
- Lower rear deck for laybacks
With you 100% there - and fits with #1.
- angled bulkhead for easier emptying
Between this and the lower read deck I’d loose some behind seat storage - but as long as the hydration pack fits - it would be good.
- Higher foredeck for knees up paddling/rotation.
Paddling a GP, we part company on this one. The low foredeck is great with GP! I understand your desire as it relates to racing, but not being a racer I like the better fit/control I can get with it as is. With high/open setup I’d be throwing braces in stuff I can handle without paddle action at all now.
- Narrower cockpit entry in front of the coaming like the Epic has, for a closer catch.
This also sort of dovetails with #1 - as it could be worked in with the volume reduction. Better catch and less windage. As it is now, it’s still better than most touring boats except the Epic by a little.
- Rudder housing that doesn’t drag constantly in the water.
Well, seen it - and agree 100% - but don’t have that problem myself as I have a skeg.
- A real back band versus the tractor seat that feels like a baggy diaper
Took care of that after 3 paddles. Backbands are a bit personal - so maybe people should expect to have to replace this? Nothing QCC picked would make everyone happy. That seat may be OK in the wider more beginner/intermediate boats, but definitely does not belong in the 600/700.
- Optional tiller bar setup for a solid platform (I feel those Seal Line rails a flexin’…)?
Going too far now maybe. Once you do that you should also set it up for quick change overstern AND understern rudder option. Really - all this would be pretty easy to do yourself.
As for the SealLine rails, I’ll leave that to my archived comments - except to say I flexed mine right out of the boat! No more pegs - just a nice wall of foam angled 15 degrees.
trilobite02 - You should talk to envyabull - his boat addresses many of these issues (except maybe 2&3). A Winters design made to race. Right up your alley.
Me, I think I’d just tweak it into more of a fast day tripper/Brit beater - and have outfitted mine along those lines.
Curling bow wave…
…is probably due more to the shape of the hull and how it deflects water than anything having to do with hull speed. My solo canoe creates a tiny curl coming off the when moving at high speed (I can’t see it but I can hear it), but my guide-boat does not. One thing I have seen, though, when watching a great variety of boats on the water is that the stern wave always gets disproportionately large when the speed of the boat nears hull speed. That may have something to do with the fact that at hull speed, the wavelength of the bow wave matches the length of the boat, so the bow and stern waves become superimposed (creating a taller wave at the stern).
High foredeck
>4. Higher foredeck for knees up paddling/rotation.
Paddling a GP, we part company on this one. The low foredeck is great with GP! I understand your desire as it relates to racing, but not being a racer I like the better fit/control I can get with it as is. With high/open setup I’d be throwing braces in stuff I can handle without paddle action at all now.
My Inuk has a high foredeck and I occasionally paddle with a GP(my low gear in high winds). No problem. A small foam block glued below deck provides the support when needed.
Paddling with the legs up and pumping works like a charm with a GP.
Oh and here’s a few ‘high foredeck’ yaks you guys might find interesting:
http://www.sportzhub.com/ruahine/kayaks.htm
/Peter
Curling
Yeah, I don’t think it is, necessarily, just something I’ve noticed. Someone else commented on that aspect of the Caribou when they were taking boats for a test drive, either back in the dark recesses of this board or on usenet.
Although I’ve had trouble visualizing all this stuff, the diagonal wakes are not the waves that govern the hull speed, the latter are apparently more like “rolling humps” that are perpendicular to the boat. I read that in one of Winter’s writings on the subject (though he didn’t use that term for them).
I read somewhere yesterday that when a boat approaches hull speed its displacement increases. This would make the diagonal wakes bigger I guess.
Mike
Hey greyak
Sounds like a Razor for trilobites02 wish list.
- less cargo room: Y
- lower rear deck for EASY layback rolls: Y (with thigh straps added)
- angled bulkhead: N (I don’t know)
- higher foredeck: Y no problem its all open
- narrower paddle entry: Y, by a lot
- rudder housing: Y (under stern or over back option)
- backband: N ( I guess you could put one in if you really wanted to)
- optional tiller bar: Y (much better for powerful forward stoke)
I will write a review shortly on the boat, I’ve been testing it in some flat water and some snarly bay conditions. so far it favors the flater water, but its been fun playing in the rough stuff nonetheless.
The QCC 700 is one of the best all around boats I’ve paddled. but isn’t it wider in front of the cockpit than behind? After the Razor it seems like such a big boat, I mean big.
A Razor?
Hmmm. Seems vaguely familiar to me, I think I’m familiar with its stern view.
Inuk-great alternative to the more mainstream choices. Fast, HARD tracker (My size 12s don’t fit with booties.).
As for the QCC 900 in the works and wish lists in general…
“Do not worry if you have built your castles in the air. They are where they should be. Now put the foundations under them.”
~Henry David Thoreau
Build away, and let the games begin… 
Q700s widest point (and others) pic
It's actually pretty close at front rear of cockpit on mine. It's definitely narrower up where you plant the paddle.
Look at the this image showing top views of Epic 18, Q700, Glider, Extreme, and (since the thread owner has one) a Caribou "S":
http://www.AppliedEccentrics.com/kayak/kayakform.jpg
Clearly the Epic and QCC are swedeform - the others fishform in increasing amount top to bottom. The Epic is exaggerated as the width behind the cockpit is carried well aft, and this makes it look even narrower up front. This view also reveals something about the difference in design intent between the Epic and QCC (cross sections would tell teh real story). I'd venture that the Epic is a bit narrower than the QCC up front, but if you cover the image from mid cockpit aft you'll see it's not as extreme a difference as at first look.
Of course swedeform decks to not necessarily mean swedeform at waterline - but as far as planting paddle closer to keel the deck is what matters.
(Note: Photo shows original Q700. I have the version with the cockpit 8" back from original - and 3" back from current production - On older and newer it will be a bit narrow still at paddle plant - but still pretty even over length of cockpit).
The Caribou is
said to be of symmetrical form on the CD site. I’ve always found that picture interesting, because it makes the cockpit appear to be almost completely aft of center. It is not, on my boat, which is a 2003 model, I’d estimate it to be at least half a foot forward of that.
Make me wonder if they’ve messed with the design along the way, perhaps they experimented with that before adding the skeg, then moved the cockpit back forward a few years after the skeg was put in. I’ve not read anything about that, though.
Mike
Excellent observation, Mhackett
While a boat’s design can potentially restrict the speed of a strong paddler, no boat can make a weak paddler fast. All the talk about the nuances of a particular design is relatively meaningless to all but the racer crowd. I daresay that most paddlers cannot push their boats to the limits of their performance envelope for any length of time, due to the lack of the necessary strength and fitness. I certainly include myself in that group. I find that I paddle at pretty much the same speed, regardless of the boat I’m in, though I do have one boat that’s slower than the others.
The bottom line is that it’s all about the “engine”.
I bet your right…
… and the picture of the 'bou is pre-skeg. Seems like QCC’s not the only one with outdated product photos (wrong cockpit location, deck rigging, hatches, and rudder on theirs!).
Some say fish/sym/fish based on midpoint of overall hull - others based on paddler position. One makes sense hull design wise (but should then be referring to shape in the water, not above) - the other regarding paddle plant (which was how I was using it as that was the main issue being asked).
It does have the “S”
on the back deck, and if you look closely I think you can see the skeg control. So I don't know what to make of that picture, really. Maybe they just intentionally distorted it, though for what reason I cannot fathom.
There's a picture of an actual pre-skeg boat on this page, you can see that the cockpit is almost exactly centrally located. Mine (skegged) looks just like this:
http://webpages.charter.net/wsmith16/seakayak.html
Yeah, not sure why QCC doesn't fix their pictures. Perhaps they are ashamed of what the new rudder looks like when retracted. ;-)
Mike