L
QCC could always show the skegged version! Mine looks so much cleaner without that appendage and related hardware. Then they could show just tail end rudder closeups elsewhere on the site - as it looks the same on all models.
Right on the “S” pic - I didn’t look that close, just plopped them all in there and tried to keep sized approximately proportional. Still - that shape/location does explain a bit about why the 'bou paddles so nicely backwards! L
QCC is Great in Rough Water
QCC700 is spectacular in rough water if you are the type of paddler who puts a premium on speed. It flies upwind and then really excels surfing waves downwind.
For forward speed it will blow away Brit boats in any condition, except for towing over ice flows.
It’s just another thing
Mike, sorry for that haunting experience, if you were the paddler that I passed between the Esopus Light House and Norrie Point State Park earlier in the season. I saw a yak a ways down the river from me and it became my goal to catch up with it. I wish I had a 700 but mine is only a 500, but it is still fast enough to be fun on the river. The GP I was using was the first one I built, a bit rough, but a strong paddle to pull on. The next one is a bit thinner with more flex but much more dynamic. So much for inspiring lines equaling speed. I guess I have a good engine.
Ed III
We are now entering the
Twilight Zone… Yes, that was me, and yes, I could tell you knew what you were doing out there and had a good engine.
I have to confess I’ve engaged in a few undeclared races like that myself, but this was the only one I’ve been on the wrong side of, so far.
Hopefully I’ll see you out there for a rematch sometime…I was using a too-long 240 Camano at that time and now have a 210 so look out. 
Mike
I don’t know how many times I have …
…been humbled biking or paddling, when I come around a bend in the river, or road and see a fellow pa(e)ddler up in front, and decide to catch up only to have the front guy fade off in the distance.
Cheers,
JackL
What Boats Do What Speeds
If people who like to work their muscles, and people who will be totally honest will post their times on Mountain Wayfarer’s site, we’d all have a better idea about which boats are capable of what speeds:
http://users.frii.com/uliasz/wayfarer/virtual_race.htm
When I go to the local lake there ain’t a soul there to rat race with. If folks will be honest, I can compare myself with people all over the world.
Tooly?
Good morning guy
the only hitch with that is you won’t get a true comparison, since most paddlers who race will have a slightly higher (as much as a half a mile per hour)time than when they are not racing.
I know lots of time when I am training, I get discouraged with my times. Then I get in a race, and over the same distance seem to go much faster.
I guess it is the adrenalin, or the competetiveness, or whatever, but for me that is the way it is.
Absolutely
– Last Updated: Oct-16-04 2:21 PM EST –
You read my mind, Jack. Several years ago my buddy and I were training for Mt Mitchell and we went to the local big, steep hill to train. When we went up separately we went pretty fast. When we went up together we went very, very fast. We're competitive animals, aren't we?
But... if John Q Kayaker takes his Tempest out on a calm day by himself and does an individual time trial... then we're comparing apples to apples, so to speak, on Mountain Wayfarer's site. (as opposed to folks posting their race times).
Biked about 40 miles with my buddies this morning on my old Centurion. Didn't think I'd bike again after that encounter with the dog. Guess I just love it too much to quit. Time for another cup of coffee!
Have a good day.
Yep
CD Extreme vs Q700
The original post on the thread mentioned that some data ranked the CD Extreme over the Q700 at most speeds.
I doubt it.
I paddled an Extreme in the Bogey race last winter; I just bought a Q700.
The Q700 is faster.
There you have it.
Thank you.
Pretty soon I’ll post a definitive comparison of the Epic 18 (owned by my paddling buddy, Phil) vs my Q700.
Both of us can be influenced by lucrative gifts by the manufacturers.
Extreme speed
The Extreme probably registers less drag (faster) than the QCC700 at lower speeds. This is typical of boats with shorter waterlines.
I imagine it is at over 4 knots that the QCC700 can be measured as faster (less drag).
People paddle less than 4 knots?
Really? In Q700, Extreme, Epic, Glider, or any other reasonable fast touring boat? For real? When actually paddling? Drifting or slowing down to chat with Brit boaters, maybe - But even mhackett, who started this Doubting Thomas thread, says he does “pretty good” at 4.5 kts in a a Caribou “S”.
I’d bet your right about the drag curve getting more in the Q700s favor over 4 kts - but Extreme should not be THAT different until over 5. Q700 should have an edge, but not an “Extreme” one. Paddler still is the bigger factor.
The whole shorter = “more efficient at lower speeds” argument is technically valid assuming less wetted surface (so if you like being right - you are) - but it’s also logically weak and nearly irrelevant for most of us.
The argument for low speed efficiency is largely irrelevant because the differences in effort at under 4 knots between most sea/tour kayaks can be measures in ounces. At 5 kts or more, the difference can be pounds. The few ounce difference at the lower speeds is not going to matter real world. Most paddlers can’t even tell the difference. Other handling and aesthetic factors can too easily alter their impressions of speed and effort at such an easy pace.
Mnay (slower) paddlers often have paddles that weigh a pound or more more than mine (or Hex’s, JackL’s, Jim’s…), yet they don’t think a lighter paddle is worth the extra $, and your suggesting they’d care about a few ounce drag difference? Same net effect (paddle actually more important).
Even forward stroke technique hardly matters under 4 kts. Anything works, and the effort is not enough to tell if your stroke is using core power from rotation or if you’re just twisting in the wind and still using arm power. Hold a good bit over 4kts for a few hours straight and you should get a fair idea what muscles you’re really using.
No sea/tour kayak is hard to paddle at 3kts. Most are still pretty easy at 4 or more. That is why 3-4 is the default group speed. Everyone paddles to match the slower paddlers/boats comfortable cruise speed.
That does not mean that range of effort is worth squat for comparisons of efficiency. Particularly not for the boats being discussed here.
But then again you did preface your comments with “probably” and “I imagine”, so I’m not really sure where you were coming from and I did go of on several tangents (nothing new there), but it sounded like you were saying more efficient over 4 kts might not be all that relevant/important outside of racing. Well, to most of us that have Q700s I can assure you it is, and we take advantage of that more often than not during normal paddling. some by a little, some by a lot.
Out of curiosity, what’s your normal cruising speed in that Aquanaut? It’s similar size except less LWL, so by your math it should be more efficient up to some point…
Welcome to MASTERS SEA KAYAK 16-18
– Last Updated: Oct-18-04 2:57 AM EST –
What happened Rob? Did you decide you didn't like being 1st place in over 18' class? Wanted more competition?
Re: speed
Greyak,
I was only speculating where the original poster got his idea that the Extreme is faster at certain speeds than the QCC700.
Hell, my Elaho is, by drag measures, faster than most boats at low speeds as it has a very short waterline. Hence it is termed quick, but not fast. It is much work for me to keep pace with the Swifts and QCC boats in my paddle group when I’m in my Elaho. I do not have that issue in my Aquanaut.
I haven’t measured my speed in the Aquanaut. It is faster than most of the boats I enjoyed test paddling and I’m fine in all conditions and with those with whom I paddle.
I would not assert that my Aquanaut, or an Extreme, is faster than a QCC700 - though they may be quicker
race question
I rented the Extreme from FBO for the race.
I’d like to say that I made the choice based on the fact that hull speed is a square root function of effective waterline length.
In reality, I just asked them to rent me a boat in a division that didn’t contain many competitors. A hollow victory, for sure, but people rarely ask how many people you raced against, they’re just impressed you got first.
Not gonna happen anymore now that I’ve got an 18’ foot boat…
I’ve got a question: since the “motor”, the paddler, is probably the most important factor, is there a way to measure paddler ability?
The numbers are in
a few other topics discussing similar issues on this board I’ve stumbled over. But, since the number of topics discussing this is rather large (what, really?), they would not be that easy to find. I believe the numbers were comparisons at 4, 4.5, and 5 knots, but as Greyak has noted, the Q700 was carrying more payload than what Sea Kayaker normally assumes.
One thing that would be ever-so-helpful would be if someone makes the claim that some boat they just paddled is “faster” than another boat, that they have some numbers to back the claim up. Not that it would be a apples-to-apples comparison, necessarily, but at least we’d have some idea of whether respective hull-speeds might be coming into play.
BTW, I hit 7 mph in my 'bou yesterday, however at the time I was surfing some windblown waves on the Hudson going with the tide. Managed to catch one just right for several seconds. That’s what the GPS said, anyway, may have been more momentarily.
Mike
phonetically I think that Thule might
be some sort of linguistic anomaly, a rogue sort of word never seen anywhere in any written language.
Tooly?
Sea Kayker numbers
– Last Updated: Oct-18-04 1:52 PM EST –
I tend to refer to the Sea Kayaker numbers as they are with 250lbs load. I rarely, even camping, paddle a kayak carrying total, paddler included, more than that. They are also readily accessible.
As I do not race, the drag figures from 4-6 knots are the ones that matter most to me. At speeds greater than 4 knots up to 6 knots, according to Sea Kayaker, the Aquanaut is faster than many touring boats including Sirius, Andormeda, Caribou, Nordkapp, P&H Quest, etc... It does register more drag at such speeds than an Endurance 18, Sultan, Foster Legend and Artic Hawk.
Ok, I found a topic with the numbers
– Last Updated: Oct-18-04 12:11 PM EST –
http://www.paddling.net/message/showThread.html?fid=advice&tid=223004
This was actually the topic where Greyak and I discussed this that other time. Quite nostalgic looking back at it now. About halfway down the discussion:
CD extreme: .93@2, 1.3@2.5, 1.94@3, 2.58@3.5, 3.43@4, 4.70@4.5, 6.87@5
QCC700: 1.01@2, 1.52@2.5, 2.12@3, 2.83@3.5, 3.79@4, 5.11@4.5, 7.02@5
Mike