Flat bottom is okay for surf skis but not for kayaks?

After a bit of kayaking I’m thinking about getting a fat newbie surf ski. One thing that’s surprised me is that reviews say these wide skis have flat bottoms and are great in the sea and surf!?

Two I’m looking at are the Carbonology Cruze X and the Stellar S18S. Both have videos on Youtube showing paddlers having a great time in all sorts of sea conditions. Unfortunately I can only find photos of the hulls in profile - the standard sales images.

I don’t know how many times I’ve read on this forum and elsewhere that a flat bottom on a kayak means low secondary stability and the first wave is going to upend you. What’s going on here? I’m genuinely mystified :face_with_spiral_eyes:

I think @MCImes is one of the few dedicated open water surf skiers left in PCom. Pikeabike also has converted to surf skiing after many years of using sea kayaks but she has not been around lately.

In YouTube world, you might want to look up @@kayakintro. This guy has lots of videos of downwind runs with all sorts of surf ski models. He also occasionally throws in runs with sea kayaks into the mix, and thus has perspective on both.

For my interest in surfing, my Sea Kayak choices in recent years have all been towards high rocker, flat bottom and hard chined for performance and maneuverability on the wave face. I used to be fascinated by these discussionss of “primary” and “secondary” stability. But, increasingly in real world paddling and surfing, these concepts has little meaning for me. Either one has the skills to paddle upright, brace, roll or self rescue in rough conditions as needed, or not. Pick the conditions and venues accordingly while working to develop one’s skills level.

-sing

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I look at surf skis as more of a rounded bottom, not flat bottom. Usually no hard chines.

Here is a review video of a Stellar 18S

If you go to Stellar’s website and to the S18S, for example, you will see a video that shows the top and bottom. As you will see, flat is a relative term. It’s less rounded than other surfskis might be.
Secondary stability is controlled by the volume beneath the waterline. If when you edge a kayak to the left, the result is more submerged volume on the left than there is on the right, you will feel a resistance to submerging the left side further. So the volume above the waterline at level becomes part of the volume below the waterline on edge. So secondary stability is really more about what you’re seeing above the waterline than below. A flat bottomed boat can still incorporate high secondary stability.
Think of a perfectly round hull. As you edge it, there is no change in submerged volume between left and right. There is no resistance to edging further. There is no secondary stability. But of course you can have a round bottom half with an above waterline design where edging to one side results in a changed displacement balance that provides secondary stability.
What you’re describing I think is something else. Imagine needing or wanting to traverse steep chop. If you’re in a wide, flat bottomed boat with high stability that doesn’t allow you to easily control your edging/leaning, it’s going to follow the surface of the waves. When they’re steep enough for you to start skidding, that lack of edge control can make it very difficult to prevent that leading edge from digging in. When the wave and gravity are pushing from one side, and your kayak digs in on the other, at some point, you will flip. But even before you flip, things can feel pretty out of control.
If a flat bottomed boat is designed so that you can still control the edges, it’s narrow enough and has appropriate volume distribution, you can take advantage of what a flat/flatter bottom has to offer.
I was out in a 3rd generation Epic V10 yesterday. I was told by an Epic rep that the 4th generation feels more stable. So they’re constantly evolving designs to strike new balances. Stability and sea manners contribute to a strong consistent stroke. How much stabilty is optimal and the importance of good sea manners is very dependant upon tbe individual and the conditions they find themselves in.
I think they’ve also discovered that if your main fight is against a bow wave and a little less round hull doesn’t effect that significantly, then why not design in a little more stability.

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The simple answer is Stability and Surfing.

Stability -
The fastest (least resistance) hull shape is a semi-circle, but as capefear says, this would have zero primary or secondary stability.

Olympic K1’s are pretty darn close to a round hull with only minor flare above the waterline and an almost perfectly round bottom. Thus, they are like balancing on a knife’s edge - extreeeemly tippy.

At the opposite end are paddle boards. No roundness, very stable.

Surf Skis were historically unstable and fast craft. Round hulls and high seats gave old skis a reputation for extreme tippyness, rightfully so.

As the sport evolved, the genius boat designers learned that non-elite folks like to paddle too! This lead to a progressive widening and flattening of ski hulls, culminating in the beginner skis we have today like the V5, V7, S14S, Bluefin, Vega Arc, and others.

Even the fattest, widest surfski like the Epic V5 is 14’ x 24" with sleek lines. I see other beginner kayaks are often 28"+ with blunt lines. This means that the ski will still be much faster and responsive than a 28-30" barge, as a 10% beam change is very noticeable in stability and speed.

Also a Ski’s flat bottom is only a small portion of the hull, typically starting at the bucket and going back towards the rudder. On a rec kayak, essentially 100% of the hull is flat. A ski only ~40% or less may be flat.

Surfing -
A flat spot behind the bucket, as shown by experience, aids in wave surfing. Ignoring stability, imagine trying to surf on a barrel. It wouldnt work. a round hull does not ‘harvest’ wave energy. A Flat hull will harvest wave energy, which is the entire point of surfing a surfski downwind - linking waves energy. This is pretty simple to see in the design of surf boards.

Additionally, adding a flat hull to a skinny boat gives the perception of being more stable. I say perception because it only helps on flat water. As soon as you’re in proper waves (like a ski should be), your stability comes from your hips, stroke, and brace.

The prime example of an elite ski with a big flat spot is the Stellar SEA. It has one of the skinniest beams of any ocean boat at 41.4cm, yet you wont see it on any podiums (because stellar does not have good Ski designs - they are a sea kayak and rowing company that also makes skis).

The balance
The best hulls have a partially round hull with a moderate sized flat spot behind the bucket. A oblong / semi-round hull provides good secondary stability and good attitude control in rough seas. A properly sized flat spot in conjunction with a semi-round hull adds primary stability, reduces ‘twitchiness’, and increases wave energy harvesting ability / surfability.

Recommendations
My personal favorite boats that embody these charistics are the Kai Wa’a Vega / Vega Flex / Vega Arc, and the Epic V10 G4 (and ONLY Gen 4. Gen 1/2/3 are COMPLETELY different boats and share none of the magic of the G4).

Do not get the Stellar. Their buckets are huge, the hulls arent fun, and they are very uninspiring surfskis. All good skis come from cultures with big waves - South Africa, Australia, or Pacific Islands (Hawaii, etc).

Carbonology is the better pick if its down to these 2 boats. If you can handle a 21" beam, then the Kai Wa’a Vega Arc is the winner (Ozone has insane value with their sub $5k full prepreg carbon 20lb boats. The Vega Arc Pro is 16lbs!!!). If 21" is too skinny then I recommend the Epic V5. But if you have any natural ability or desire to learn 21" is generally approachable. The Epic V8 at 22" was the gold standard of beginner boats for decades until the 22"+ novice boats came around a few years ago.

Where are you paddling (or what type of water)? how much experience do you have? what’s the skinniest boat you normally paddle? do you know wing stroke? Do you know wing WELL? Are you willing to swim and learn or do you want instant-easy-no-challenge stability? how warm/cold is your typical water?

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Amazing help, thanks. I’ve learned so much from this, and it’s helping me with confidence to give a comfy beginner surf ski a go.

In answer to your questions, MCImes, I’m really at the low end of the experience, skill spectrum, and also 65yo. Just done some up and down river paddling and a little on calm seas. One slightly rough sea that tipped my friend over in a 22" wide sea kayak, with the hassle of a flooded cockpit, was part of making me think that a wide ski would be so much easier to fall out of and of course get back into and paddle away. Just want something that will encourage me to get out on the ocean more, safely and reasonably stably and start to gently build skills.

I’m in Townsville, North Queensland, so right in the middle of what’s left of the Great Barrier Reef, with no surf but the Coral Sea does get considerable swell and chop. I want to be able to paddle out to Magnetic Island (with a group) and paddle round it for a few days. So the Cruze and S18S attracted me because I can put a bit of gear in them. Also because they’re not too long. The only place I can store boats is hoisted to the roof of my carport, which has only 586cm in available length. Anything 5.9m or longer is not possible.

I do keep hearing good things about Carbonology, and your warning about Stellar has been noted MCImes. Given I’m a bit remote and can’t sit in the boat before ordering, getting something that nobody complains about comfort-wise seems advisable too, and the Cruze seems to tick that box.

So all in all, the Cruze X is looking good at the moment. Thanks again, this has really helped.

Go out to Youtube and (search) reach out to Kayakintro at YouTube. He is located in Aukland and surf skis similar conditions that you described. He is friendly, knowledgeable and pretty responsive about his sport. https://www.youtube.com/@kayakintro

-sing

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Thanks for the link Sing. Indeed lots of videos learning skills on choppy sea. Thanks!