Absolutely
Molokai to Oahu race is most definitely held on open water
Fastest SUP in 2013 finished in 4h 50min
Results - http://www.pseresults.com/events/520/results
Fastest surfski in 2013 finished in 3h 55min, under crappy conditions ( flat/no wind)
http://www.surfski.info/races/pacific/story/1491/clint-robinson-takes-third-molokai-challenge.html
peanut gallery could argue till cows come home which design is fastest, but their arguments are quite muted by the real racing results.
I agree that paddling in surf is more fun than just going the distance, and that planing hulls make having fun even more fun, but craft designed for having fun in winds and waves do not typically have stability, ease of handling, and speed in their design portfolio.
half of the
debate seems to be SUP vs kayak. Comparing SUPs to kayaks is aking comparing peanuts to pineapples or guided missile destroyers to container ships. SUP and kayak are entirely different watercraft with entirely different paddlking dynamics. SUP will never beat a kayak on a closed loop couirse where SUP’er has to paddle against conditions. In order to make comparacen at leats a little bit fairer, imagine paddling SUP from a kneeling position where you can’t easily shift ur center of gravity - any percieved advantage is gone immediately. You can not argue against fluid mechanics - inspeasing wetted surface always adds to resistance and a short hull has instricically less speed than a longer one. Weight is also a factor. Out of two boats with same weight, beam and length a flat-bottomed boat will always be slower. By how much? Another question. But it will be slower. And if you increase beam on flat-bottomed boat it will get even more slower. Ever seen a K1? Form follows function.
This is a SUP vs. sit point
The flatness of the hull has little to do with this video. The maneuverability in SUP comes from the ability to shift the weight of the paddler to the rear. In fact, these particular boards in the video track straight - they even have a rudder to help maintain direction...
As said, they are far from versatile - they are fast and are unstable relatively speaking (are narrower than chubbier slower designs). They nose dive in steep waves, so no good for short period wind chop or beach break. They suck upwind, just like all SUPs do, compared to a kayak.
As mentioned, these are closer to "specialized" than to "versatile". I would put them in the same category as racing surf skis as they are intended for use and are fun in exactly the same situations. Go downwind or paddle on the flats. The life saving paddle boards are on the other hand similar in use to the "spec" skis - go throughout he surf, out and back. Except that the skis and paddle boards can do pretty good upwind and the SUP is torture, so the SUP is "less versatile" from that perspective. And the fact it is flat makes no difference for it, if anything, makes it even more specialized, because if it ain't planing it is slower than anything else that has some curve to it and is narrower in beam.
Flat Bottom Discussion - Not SUP
It's really wonderful that on this site we can share our experiences with flat bottom boats, whether they be SUPs, kayaks, and canoes. The video was just an example of a craft with a flat bottom. In the past, I've owned surfskis, K-1s and canoes with a combination of flat, round and V shaped hulls and unfortunately, I don't have any videos demonstrating their performance under all conditions mother nature has surprised me with on various lakes, rivers and on the ocean. Perhaps, the most versatile craft would be one that incorporated a combination of hull shapes?
Happy Thanksgiving, clyde
Not maneuverable at all
Rather than showing how maneuverable those SUPs are, it demonstrates that they are VERY hard-tracking. In fact, no reasonably maneuverable boat I’ve seen could even make those extended coasting surf runs without constant correction of some kind, because a boat that doesn’t track hard WILL tend to turn at such speed, and the rate of turn rapidly increases if left unattended (like the guy here who’s posted so many cool videos of himself surfing in a sea kayak, where once up to speed and coasting on the face of a wave, a constant stern rudder is needed to keep from broaching). Eight to 15 hard strokes on one side didn’t result in any noticeable amount of turning action in the video, but any moderately maneuverable hull propelled by that many strokes on just one side would go in a pretty tight circle rather than in a perfectly straight line, and a highly maneuverable hull would turn so tightly that it wouldn’t even go anywhere at all. I guess my definition of “maneuverable” means that the boat will turn quite easily and sharply if you want it to, not just barely enough to steerable. Again, I’m not knocking the fact that they are so hard-tracking, they need to do to do well in that specific situation. I’m just questioning why anyone would call that type of handling “highly maneuverable”.
YES!
Now that is cool. The Viper kayak surfs similarly which makes it so fun downwind, yet it still does ok upwind.
Guideboat guy
My 14 ft planing hull surf tour prototype will spin 180 degrees on edge with one sweep! FAR more maneuverable than any sea touring kayak, yet it surfs vastly superior and holds a line. There are two reactions typically to new ideas, and we see them at play here. 1. Intrigue at new ideas and possibilities. What if we combined attributes of SUP’s and paddle craft? What might we learn / experience. For me the experience exceeded my expectations and blew away some of my pre-conceived notions. How playful the craft was amazed me.
2. Resistance to new ideas and confirmation bias toward the old ideas.
This is about having fun and I think we may see some inspiring new stuff secondary to SUP, surf concepts.
Cobra Revision -not flat bottomed, slow
My Revision has a more rounded bottom that you would think. And it is really a bluff bow that pushed quite a wake. It is fun but not fast by any terms. I’d say it is one of the slowest 13 footers I have paddled.
Still faster than an 8 foot surf kayak or most modern white water boats. Speed is relative.
I only responded to what was said and…
… what was in the video, so don’t try to take it further by reading between lines. What I said is clear enough without extrapolation.
I said exactly three things, none of which stated or implied that flat-bottomed boats can’t be innovative or the right tool for a particular job. First, I said that even if a particular flat-bottomed hull is fast, it is no paradox, but instead is something that can be explained based on well-established ideas. To support that, I pointed out that information provided by the author of the article strongly suggests that among the boats being discussed, making them even wider actually made them slower, rather than the opposite as was implied by the OP in his first post, and especially as implied in one of his followup replies. Second and third, I said that Clyde’s video of SUPs speeding downwind is anything BUT a good way to illustrate versatility and maneuverability, since the hulls shown in that video clearly are highly specialized and very hard-tracking. That’s not the same as rejecting the idea that flat-bottomed hulls CAN be versatile or maneuverable, and is especially not a way of rejecting the value of the hulls shown for their intended use.
.
Sort of amusing that someone considers flat bottom hulls hard tracking - they are, usually, anything but. Change of direction comes from engaging of rails.
Speed is a bit more interesting - if the hull is not planing yet, it is slow as dog, once it plains out it becomes very fast. Usually it takes a bit effort, or gravity in form of surf/swell, to give it the boost to pop up.
Stop generalizing.
I tried to make it very clear that I wasn't generalizing, but here you come claiming that I was doing exactly that. You need to read my response to Salty again. You won't find a single statement that generally applies to flat-bottomed boats in the way you imply here.
And if it's the definition of "maneuverable" that's so confusing to you, well, I don't consider changing course by just a few degrees at a time due to "engaging" edges of the hull to be in the same league with what can be done with boats that can be made to immediately point in whichever direction you please. Salty gave an example of that kind of maneuverability, but unfortunately, not being an SUP, the example wasn't relevant to anything I had talked about.
Rudders
Have to be considered in the performance of the hull. It is, apparently, common for boards to be equipped with rudders or skegs, which greatly changes the equation for these type of craft. Also, because boards have no side profile for the wind to bang against, they are less affected than hulls, even those with low profiles.
When discussing hull designs for kayaks, flat bottoms on a narrow hull (say, 18-21 inches) may have relatively small affects, but as the hull becomes wider, there is likely to be significant slowing and more weather cocking (the hull will, as some point out, ride higher, but since it lacks a keel of any kind, it is more likely to succumb to external forces, including those from the paddle).
Admittedly, these are just “tends to” conditions. I’ve seen a lot of different hulls and have been surprised by some of the performance characteristics once you put them on the water. Some look surprisingly well designed on shore, but perform disappointingly and others are just the opposite.
I maintain, however, that it is unlikely that one can make such a drastic change to a hull, such as a flat bottom with added width and produce a craft that can manoeuver, track, and have higher speed than more traditional hull designs.
When I worked in quality control, we had a saying: “You can have it fast, of high quality, or cheap; pick two.” I am perfectly open to a flat hull design, I’ve seen them work on other craft (which tend to have very specific design behavior, especially in rough water). A loss of speed isn’t always a given, but a narrow flat hull tends to be a bit squirrelly in rough conditions, especially in a beam wind/swell which I easily handle with a more rounded hull with a small keel…
As a flat hull design widens, the hull will tend to ride higher (assuming the same hull weight). You see this in air boats (“Everglade boats,” “Fan Boats”) which can plane and have almost no draft at speed. They are fast, but seaworthiness and manoeuvering are negatively affected. You just don’t want a hull like this on the open ocean and you only see them in calm water conditions.
As stated before, hull design is a matter of tradeoffs and you can make effective flat hull designs, but you can’t have everything you want in ANY hull, it simply can’t be done. As I said before, if that were possible, there would be only one hull design and nobody would have any reason to prefer the design of boat A over boat B.
Rick
Relax
My intent was not to point at you, rather challenge assumptions made in general about new ideas / concepts.
I read into your post an assumption that I shared once as well. I was pretty sure the Vipor for example would be slugging in some quick maneuvering. I was blown away. I also thought that an outside lean / edge would not work at all due to the concave sides / rails. Again, wrong. I thought the boat would be terrible up wind. Again, wrong. Yep it slams more than a sea kayak, but, I kept up just fine. So, I have a 14’ boat that goes up-wind just fine but is a blast downwind and more playful in turning, surf, etc.
You do a lot more upper body leaning for and aft for sure, but when the bow does bury, it comes to the surface and you’re gone. It makes me, and some other pals wonder where this could go??
I think your thoughts are valuable and my post wasn’t meant to offend.
Salty…
Did you guys put fins on the 14 surf hybrid boats?
Yes