Follow-up review, Tempest 180

Observation Is There

– Last Updated: Jan-20-04 10:36 AM EST –

and you did give enough details so folks can figure at least in one situation that it was a beginning 130 pounder in a boat that was designed for someone much bigger. The other situation was never discussed.

You did end with a judgement: "I am not impressed." I guess the reaction I have is that I would not be impressed nor dismayed by the boat's performance. It was in challenging conditions with a paddler who was not the right size for it. And, even if she were, there is still the question of whether she had the skills to control the boat anyway. For example if she were in a NDK Romany, she may still be all over the place... Would that be the boat or the paddler?

sing

I figured
the rest of the story would emerge.



I too, have had less than stellar paddlers in challenging conditions. way back when. It was even ‘my’ fault! ouch.



But I certainly wouldn’t base a boat test on this scenerio. Way too many things outta whack.



steve

and there is a point
at about 25-30 knots when even the skeg won’t keep the boat ‘dead’ downwind. It takes a little skill to find that magic ‘sweet’ spot. Especially when moving fast/ surfing.



Too much leverage on the pivot point with the stern sticking up. Happens on every boat I’ve tested. Very low stern windage helps but then you lose your volume and bouyancy.



I did some tests using BIG skegs. Ones that would hold the boat to dead downwind. The drag is so intense that you can’t accelerate. It’s a fine line.



steve

Tempest 180 Review - Long Post - respons
Paul (and others),



I appreciate the followup review. I’m consuming any and all information I can find on the Tempest 180. I too did some beta testing evaluation on the boat and upon returning it to the store (Alder Creek in Portland, OR) I placed my order for one.



I guess I’m going to have to move my NDK Poseidon to the other side of the garage so I can make room for the T180 .



I did post a review of the boat in a couple of places, I don’t think paddling.net was one of them. If there is an interest, I suppose I could dig up a copy of the review and post it here.



The summary of the review was the T180 is the “Perfect Beast”. I guess my ordering one is about the best endorsement I can give the boat.



Thanks again

Wade


Tempest 180 in the Wind
Paul,



I did get an opportunity to use the prototype I in wind (the yellow boat). After paddling my NDK Poseidon (16’ long) for the last year, I found the Proto I tough to turn into the wind. Mind you it was high wind, but relatively flat water (Lake River near Ridgefield).



After paddling the Proto II, I’m looking forward to the next windy day. Last weekend we paddled Bachelor Island and then up into Gee Creek. Gee Creek is very small and winding. The 18’ boat should have been an issue, but I’m not joking, I can turn that boat as easy as I ever did my 16’ NDK.



I was surprised to see the Proto II was cut up in the stern. I didn’t have any problems moving the stern when testing the Proto I. Steve told me that they cut it out and then added it back.



I’m very anxious to get my T180.



Wade

Reason for my assumption
Hi liv2padl,



I don’t think I said anything that used the assumption that you guided the beginners out there. (I did say it would have been interesting to switch paddlers between the two boats, which may be taken to assume you were in a position to facilitate that.) You may not have been directing the comments to me. I will admit though, that was my assumption. Just for feedback, there were two things which caused me to interpret your message that way.


  1. Nice succinct description of paddler wt and CARGO wt, as if you had started out with them. It’s easy as a beginner for me to forget that you might be able to estimate cargo wt just by the way the boat sits in the water. Or maybe you helped pull the boat up on land.


  2. You never said you came upon them in distress. The phrase “another beginner was paddling with us under the same conditions” caused me to think they were with you from the beginning.



    Just sharing with you why I made a wrong assumption.



    I do support people questioning around safety practices, even if it is sometimes based on wrong assumptions.



    Take care man. I don’t have a mental record of any of your other posts, but I hope you keep posting. Open communication is a good thing. You may wish to be anonymous, but it would be nice to know your name and any affiliation you might have with kayak companies. My name’s Paul Stivers, BTW. No affiliation.



    Paul S.




wasn’t directed to you specifically - -
just a general response to those that feel the need to “jump on the negative” by making assumptions, inferences, and erroneous conclusions. seems to be a holier than thou phenomenon here by some, though certainly not limited by any means to this forum. i guess it’s an internet thing. i don’t take it personally, recognizing that those that live by the sword usually die by it. i’ve been here for years. i don’t set any records for posting but i read the goings on alot. you can’t take this stuff too seriously, eh? Dan.

Dig it up por favor?
Wade…

If it isn’t too much trouble to find your review…it would be great if you could post it.

Enjoy!

Bob

What is it about the way the seat
is put in that makes it so you can’t fit in the cockpit?



Thanks,

Paul S.

30-35kts fairly rough?
35kts sustained is Gale force. That’s a stout wind. I’m a 200lbs (only 5’9") and think twice about going out in my Q600 in anything over 25kts. This morning it was north at 18 gusting to 25 (measured at Langley Field nearby) and I was comfortable but gusts on beam were making me skid sideways. That’s 200lbs of me with about 30-40lbs of gear which really sinks a Q600 deep in the water and I was skidding sideways though maintaining a straight heading. 35kts is exponentially worse than 20kts.



I’ve been to surf ski races called off at 25kts sustained with gusts to 30-35 because of safety considerations.





Anyway enough rambling: I wouldn’t write off the Tempest too quickly. 17ft of boat and 80lbs of gear may have just been too much for 130lbs of paddler. Especially a beginner. Just loading it a tiny bit bow heavy can ruin the handling in conditions. Just ask my brother what he thought of a NF Legend when I put a 10lb water jug in his front hatch with nothing in the back.



Leaky hatches? That’s a no good boss.

Understated, But Effective
I don’t know the first thing about sea kayaks, but any beginner that came back from that trip alive has my total respect regardless of the boat!



I would have been so scared you would not be able to drive a pin in my butthole with a sledge hammer!

Swedge

– Last Updated: Jan-22-04 5:44 AM EST –

See if removing the hip pads will help with the fit. The Tempest comes with tight fitting pads you can customize.

custom sized hip pads
The standard seat should have been wider so as to make that feature usable starting with hip pads removed for the person with wide hip pads then using the pads for the average to narrower than average hips. I know a woman who’s 5’10" and she’s not comfortable in the T-170 seat because of it’s width. I’m an averaged sized person and can’t use the adjustable hip pads which leaves one with a vertical hip contour when removed. That was a strange decision to start an adjustment set for a person with narrow hips in a big boat (T-170).

That’s a good reminder about trim
Thanks for the reminder on that.



I’ve never been too sure how much it matters. I was getting all ANALitical over on the PDXseakayaker board about trim, with me in the T180, and in general. I asked people to view a picture of me siting in the boat and asked if it seemed to be trimed right. Even pointed out that I had 5 lbs in the day hatch and about 7 lbs in the rear hatch, and that I was probably leaning back a little more than I usually do when paddling, in case any of that mattered :^). I basically got a “trim looks good” reply.



It could be easy for me to forget all about trim some day and throw a 20 lb bag in the front. Thanks for the reminder.

been all over it
with ALL the pads out, no go. I have pretty big thighs. and am pretty Tall 6’3" theat combo just doesnt fit in the 170. I fit fine in the Cape horn. same seat…

Same for me
I sat in the Cape Lookout (I think. One of the Capes anyway) and it fit me well. I tried sitting in the T170 last week just to see. I got in it, but the coaming was pressing against my sides, never mind the seat, and the bulkhead was too close, never mind the foot pegs. The T180m fits me perfect. It might fit you well. Or you might just be in between.

switch seats?
maybe WS will put the 180 seat into the 170?

I wonder what the long range durability of all these adustable seats will be once the pads get torn or the minicell gets compressed.

it’s all about balance
and trim is the way we measure it.



YAW

ROLL

PITCH



In the YAW plane I trim with strokes and skeg/ rudder



In the ROLL plane with boat loading and body posture



In the PITCH plane with boat loading and posture.



Balance, grasshopper.



steve

soon as we get
the 180 seat totally wired. This is a possibility, in fact we’re looking to standardize the whole system.



btw, I have 2 full seasons on a 170 seat and it still is totally functional.



steve

Changing my nick
Maybe I should change my nick to grasshopper. Or with all the music related nicks (sing, singsong2, flatpick, …) maybe I’ll change it to tone-deaf, to balance things out :^). Actually, I can hear good music, I just can’t make good music. Maybe tone-dumb is more appropriate.