I sit 95% or more of the time in my canoes and my knees don’t much like kneeling, so I’m wondering if non-kneelers in boats like the Curtis Lady Bug would benefit much from a freestyle symposium, or if only kneelers should invest the time & money to travel to such a symposium?
The symposium that I would most likely attend next year (too late to register this year), because it’s relatively close to central IL, is the Midwest Freestyle Symposium http://freestylecanoeing.com/MFSInfosheet10.html
Thanks in advance for any input.
You can probably still register
If you want to come, contact the organizer (send me a private email if you need the phone #).
As to the question of freestyle for a non-kneeler, the answer is yes you can. You won’t have the degree of control offered by kneeling, and you likely won’t be able to heel the boat to the rail but any paddler can benefit from the techniques that are taught.
In Freestyle 1 and 2 we see many students who have not yet developed much of a heel. They still manage axles. posts, christies and wedges. Side slips work just fine from a sitting position.
Freestyle is all about understanding and learning to work with the physics of the boat,paddle and paddler. It’s about efficient, effective and precise boat control.
Come and join us next weekend. You won’t be disappointed and most likely you’ll not be the only non-kneeler.
Marc Ornstein
Dogpaddle Canoe Works
Custom Canoe Paddles and Woodstrip Canoes
www.dogpaddlecanoe.com
Some other thoughts
– Last Updated: Sep-06-10 8:17 PM EST –
I've been to two FS symposiums as a student, and would generally agree with Marc's comments. I'd add three other things:
1. Why don't you kneel? If it's a matter of physical inability or discomfort, okay. But if it's just habit or a psychological thing, you are missing out on a lot of the technical joy of canoeing. There is no question that kneeling increases boat control, most especially for freestyle moves in flatwater, virtually all moves in whitewater, and in heavy or scary wind and waves.
That Curtis Ladybug was made to be a kneeling canoe. As I recall, you are very lightweight. Kneeling, you could spin that Ladybug like a top and eventually topple Marc Ornstein as national champion.
2. Do you use a bent shaft? If you paddle seated with a bent, you can use the bent for freestyle, but it will be much more of a technical challenge and you may have to seek out instructors who are bent-capable. (Actually, I haven't seen any of the solo instructors teaching with a bent, though that was the original tool recommended by Mike Galt.)
I find it fun to use a bent for FS, though I do it from my knees and had to teach myself after I learned the stroke basics with a straight shaft. With the bent, you have the additional challenge of palm-rolling the asymmetrical faces into the proper orientation, which is not an issue with the simple and symmetrical straight stick. For example, you will probably want to invert the paddle (i.e., so the back face is toward the hull) on side slips, wedges, and probably even axles and posts. This requires fun finesse in the initiation and conclusion stages of the stroke.
Bring a straight paddle with you, even if you plan on using a bent as your primary paddle.
3. Friends and boats. If you have the time and money for it, a freestyle symposium is worth it just to meet other paddlers, maybe make new friends, and to see and try out other people's boats and paddles.
You’re going to feel left out
Freestyle demands significant well controlled heel.
If I couldn’t kneel I’d be looking for ways to do that from a seated position. A foot brace with stirrups at least. Maybe some sort of thigh hooks.
It’s nice if you can move your weight fore and aft as well. Maybe a sliding seat?
And a straight paddle that works with either side as powerface.
A thought on bents
A big bladed bent gives a low brace blade orientation with a high brace, allowing extension across the rail… This is a compelling part of FS tandem.
I’m waiting for someone brave to try that extension in a solo boat.
Not many big bladed bents available; but Cricket and Mitchell offer one each.
wwithout getting personal
and there is no need to reply…just if it doesnt apply to you just discard in your waste can.
Many people never thought they could kneel. But a big cushy well made pad makes all the difference.
There IS a progression. For many limiting kneeling to five minutes the first day and ten the second and twenty the third makes things comfortable.
Its when you try to force people to kneel for eight hours in a row when they have never done that before that they really really hate you. With good cause.
When you are a student you will spend considerable time watching and thinking. There is a lot of time when you need not kneel.
Big cushy pads and foot clearance?
I find that any pad in the center of the boat makes getting my feet in and out from under the seat to be a real pain. I often wear Chota Quicklace mukluks. I haven’t experimented with any of the expensive commercial pads and probably won’t, unless I can try them out first. I generally don’t like pads that get slick when wet or start floating if I get a little water in the boat. I’d want something that doesn’t move around in the boat unless I want it to.
The glue in knee cup type pads are the ones that have felt most comfortable in boats that I’ve test paddled on group trips, but they’re not appropriate for freestyle.
What I’ve used the most is the strap on knee pads and they’re ok for occasional use, but not so great for extended kneeling.
I don’t get out paddling enough to break my knees in slowly. As little a 1 hour of continuous kneeling can leave my knees hurting for days.
My knees haven’t been too great since high school football. The last few weeks they’ve been hurting just going up and down stairs.
For 99% of my paddling I don’t need the added control afforded by kneeling. I usually only do it in the more challenging sections of the local rivers or for just messing around on lakes & rivers.
I’ve got foot braces in all of my solo canoes.
Thanks for that info, Marc.
My impression was that relative non-kneeler could benefit from freestyle instruction, even if they can’t go to the extremes of kneelers making full use boat bilge for weight shifting.
Unfortunately, after posting my original query, I became aware of some additional financial obligations that will probably prevent me from attending this year’s Midwest Freestyle Symposium. I’ll probably attend the local paddling club’s moving water skills workshop and learn a little more about reading rivers and maneuvering around deadfalls & snags.
Thanks again for the info and encouragement.
Kneeling is painful for me.
Glen McGrady said: “1. Why don’t you kneel? If it’s a matter of physical inability or discomfort, okay. But if it’s just habit or a psychological thing, you are missing out on a lot of the technical joy of canoeing. There is no question that kneeling increases boat control, most especially for freestyle moves in flatwater, virtually all moves in whitewater, and in heavy or scary wind and waves.
That Curtis Ladybug was made to be a kneeling canoe. As I recall, you are very lightweight. Kneeling, you could spin that Ladybug like a top and eventually topple Marc Ornstein as national champion.
2. Do you use a bent shaft? If you paddle seated with a bent, you can use the bent for freestyle, but it will be much more of a technical challenge and you may have to seek out instructors who are bent-capable. (Actually, I haven’t seen any of the solo instructors teaching with a bent, though that was the original tool recommended by Mike Galt.)
I find it fun to use a bent for FS, though I do it from my knees and had to teach myself after I learned the stroke basics with a straight shaft. With the bent, you have the additional challenge of palm-rolling the asymmetrical faces into the proper orientation, which is not an issue with the simple and symmetrical straight stick. For example, you will probably want to invert the paddle (i.e., so the back face is toward the hull) on side slips, wedges, and probably even axles and posts. This requires fun finesse in the initiation and conclusion stages of the stroke.
Bring a straight paddle with you, even if you plan on using a bent as your primary paddle.
3. Friends and boats. If you have the time and money for it, a freestyle symposium is worth it just to meet other paddlers, maybe make new friends, and to see and try out other people’s boats and paddles.”
------------------------------------------------------
My responses:
As little a 1 hour of continuous kneeling can leave my knees hurting for days.
My knees haven’t been too great since high school football. The last few weeks they’ve been hurting just going up and down stairs.
For 99% of my paddling I don’t need the added control afforded by kneeling. I usually only do it in the more challenging sections of the local rivers or for just messing around on lakes & rivers.
I’ve got foot braces in all of my solo canoes, except the Blackhawk Zephyr, which will have one as soon as I cut out a block of time long enough to install it.
The Curtis Lady Bug paddles quite nicely while sitting and using a foot brace for someone my size - 5’6" and 155 lbs. It does turn quite nicely when heeled, but not quite as quickly as my Bell Flashfire with 1" longer than stock thwarts (I bought the Flashfire that way and haven’t taken time to return it to stock). I don’t consider the Lady Bug to be a “kneeling” boat, but a boat that works well with the paddler kneeling or sitting. I feel the same about the Flashfire. I do, of course, agree that I have the greatest control of the boats when kneeling, but that degree of control just isn’t needed for most of my paddling.
I use a ZRE bent most of the time, but have been using a Wenonah Black Light carbon straight shaft more and more in the Lady Bug and Flashfire and enjoying it’s smoothness and control. I normally don’t like large bladed paddles, but this one doesn’t seem like too much work in these smaller canoes at low to moderate speeds.
Thanks for your tips & suggestions.
I’ve considered adding stirrups
to my foot braces.
I can kneel for short periods of time when needed for better boat control in a tricky situation or desired for messing aroun, but usually don’t do it for too long before returning to sitting.
I have a Grey Owl Marathon, but it’s
pretty short for normal paddling and probably way to short for Freestyle paddling. It is, however, quite a beautiful piece of art. My Sawyer Manta is also relatively large bladed, but is also slightly cupped, so not so good for Freestyle.
Ditch the mukluks
– Last Updated: Sep-07-10 5:34 AM EST –
I second all of the comments made by Kayamedic. Based on your last reply, I realized there are two more pertinent points to be addressed. They are foot and leg wear.
I find any sort of footwear with a sole to be problematic for serious freestyle. The sole (even a reasonably flexible sole) creates various forms of foot discomfort and makes foot movement difficult. It also increased the difficulty of getting my feet under and out from under the seat. My preferred footwear is thin, neoprene socks/booties without any sole. Second choice, if I may need to get out and walk often (strainer clogged streams) is a neoprene booty with a very thin sole.
Leg wear is also important. My favorite is quick dry nylon pants. The kind often sold with zip off legs. Some paddlers wear shorts with spandex pants or tights. Old polyester dress pants also work. Any of the above will allow your legs to move around without sticking to the pad.
I know it's been covered here before, but if you don't want to invest in an expensive commercial pad, use the "Toys Are Us" solution. These are mini cell like pads that come in interlocking squares. You can buy them from "Toys Are Us" in bright colors or from "Harbor Freight" in gray. Last time I looked, they were $9.99 for a package of four at HF. Lock them together and trim them to fit snugly beneath the gunnels and seat hangers. Some of the best FS paddlers I know, use them exclusively.
Marc Ornstein
Dogpaddle Canoe Works
Custom Canoe Paddles and Woodstrip Canoes
www.dogpaddlecanoe.com
Chota Lites
have a pretty minimal sole/heel.
They are my Mucluc of choice and I hate getting my heels caught on anything when I paddle.
Adjusting pitch from seated…
– Last Updated: Sep-07-10 7:40 AM EST –
You've got a distinguished array of Freestyle instructors responding here... and I don't belong in their company. What I'd like to contribute is more of a further query / discussion point for them that might also be of interest and relevant to you.
I find adjusting the PITCH of the canoe by kneeling up (off the seat) a key element of most manoeuvres - and my first instinct is that changing pitch would be tougher from sitting with stirups. On the other hand, I think this could be overcome... if only by rotating towards a variation on a transverse stance (perhaps with the aft knee over the rails and the other tucked in behind it).
I suspect this is something a veteran freestyle paddler could manage (and is perhaps managed quite commonly) with grace and style: I'm not that paddler, but if I get a chance this evening I shall give it a go and let you know how wet I get :)
Dont worry about the equipment
like pads and paddles.
Much of the fun we have is seeing what others use and finding out why they like something in particular. There is enough gear to share.
Footwear is the big issue. Most of us paddle at these events in scantily clad feet. Obviously that does not work for ordinary tripping and ordinary practical freestyle. Hard soled shoes lead to feet cramps for many. I use canyoneering shoes and they work fine on wilderness trips too for me.
We would love to see you there…and talk footbraces. My Peregrine needs a set for sure.
Just one more thought
Symposiums are great because of the people that are there. I learn most of what I know from the instructors. But, I pick up a lot of little “techniques” from other attendees. (Usually during meal times or around the campfire.) Kind of fine tuning stuff.
The Midwest FS is really intense and there is a lot of information packed into a weekend. It sounds like you won’t be able to make it this year. Which is a shame.
Another thought is to get your local paddling club to “host” a freestyle instructor to conduct a class for the club. There are a couple really excellent instructors that I can think of in the midwest.
It sounds like you really want to give it a try. It also sounds like you accept that you might not be able to heel as far while sitting, but are willing give it your best. Sounds like you should try to attend a Freestyle Symposium.
Reporting back…
Well… that was an eye opener. I’ll wait to hear what the instructors have to say about exactly how it should be done… but I found getting into a transverse position with a knee on the rails easier from seated than I’ve ever found it from kneeling!
I was comfortable with various techniques on the onside, and soon found one that worked on the off-side. All ways of moving got me further forward than I could have managed in one move from kneeling (really loosening up the stern) and I really had a ball.
Did eventually end up counting fishes… but only when getting up on the front thwart to try a pretty extreme wedge!
MFS is also the Canoeists
Garlic Festival.
No there isnt garlic in everything but you have the opportunity to buy any of several varieties of hard necked garlic that is air dried. It will last for months.
One of the organizers is a garlic farmer. And does a great job.
Well that explains
the scarcity of vampires at that venue.
I always wondered…
Another thought
I think “kneeling” is a decieving term to some. Many people have trouble putting much weight on their knees for very long and don’t realize that a solo seat can be adjusted so very little of your weight is actually on the knees when in the “kneeling” position. I have helped many people by adjusting their seat height and angle so they can choose how much weight to put on their knees,if any. This enables them to use their knees breefly to manover and then unload them for the majority of the time. If the wieght on them and not the position is the problem,this will help.
Turtle