Glenn,
I will address only the one comment you directed to me…
For a peel out in ww, I do use cross forwards, The velocity is extremely important. Your earlier post was referencing back ferrys, which do not require a lot, if any, velocity. I do not mean to imply that there could never be an instance where another technique would not be useful. You referenced one such instance. However, I find that a keener paddle sensitivity allows me to accomplish back ferrys moving laterally using on-side reverse strokes the majority of the time for most situations. The technique is just another tool in the box. That was the only point I was trying to make.
Tracy
Can’t agree with that
You say that a backferry does not require much velocity, but in actual fact, ANY ferry, frontward or backward, that is carried out for a longer time period than the boat’s inertia will “hold out” against the current will require you to paddle faster than the current (faster than the current since you are at an angle, while in and no motion crosswise across the river, you must paddle the same speed as the current). “Jet ferries” make use of the boat’s substantial inertia to create an artificially high speed through the water right after a quick entry into a fast zone from a stationary position, but a jet ferry “runs out of steam” and cannot be sustained in the way that Glen is describing. I already KNOW that this is a difficult concept for most folks to grasp (like any frame-of-reference situation), and functionally, it is absolutely possible to do perfect ferries based on misunderstanding of what goes on, but someday I might ask for assistance from Carldelo in explaining this. He’s a guy who “gets it”, as does Glen, I expect, based on what he wrote.
I’LL TAKE A STAB AT 2 POINTS
– Last Updated: Nov-12-10 6:11 AM EST –
!st off, my original remarks were based on moving water such as might be found in the Pine Barrens. I was not referring to whitewater situations. There are too many variables in true WW situations to place artificial restrictions on what stroke might be appropriate. In reality, most of us have resorted to "what works", more often than we may be wiling to admit.
With regard to performance scoring in Freestyle Competitions, it is important to note the distinction between "Freestyle" as a generic term and "Interpretive Freestyle". The competitions are "Interpretive Freestyle" and like any sport must have certain standards and rules. The sport is based upon flat water canoeing skills. A 180 deg. heeled to the rail turn is a demonstration of boat control. Being able to do that with a variety of maneuvers in various quadrants demonstrates additional levels of control. Using FS skills in a moving water situation requires that the maneuvers be modified to suit the venue. It is not necessary to denigrate "Interpretive Freestyle" because it fails to meet notions of what real world paddling should be.
Marc Ornstein
This whole discussion would
be rather neat at the back porch with the rockers at FFS and as most of the participants know each other think of this forum as the virtual bar room or coffee shop.
Setting a ferry angle to miss something on mildwater is a far cry from a backferry siuation on more moving water. Little solos dont have much inertia because of little mass.
The ability to have control and be able to apply power if needed is critical. You dont know what is right around the bend and it may be that at the last moment you see an obstruction.
My best ferries have been under power…significant power. Often goaded on because the consequences of NOT applying power are bad.
The toolbox gets fuller…
3, Onside Christie
The next maneuver to consider is the Christie, an onside, inside heeled skidded turn. It is useful turning solo touring hulls, as their long, narrow, usually minimally rockered bow sections resist turning draws.
The Christie is unique in that the yaw is initiated by a strong stern push rather than by drawing the bow inside the maneuver.
Initiate with a strong, thumb-down, J push-out, then palm roll the paddle into a reverse sweeping low brace. The palm roll maintains powerface continuity, hence the brace, an important consideration because we heel the hull towards the inside of the maneuver.
The palm roll is also key when paddling with a bent pddle, the usual condition in a touring canoe.
The Christie ends with the hull turning through ~90 degrees when the paddleblade has traveled abeam the paddler. If more rotation is desired, be combine the Christie with a turning bow draw.
Maintaining the inside heel, palm roll again while bringing the paddleshaft up from the horizontal low brace to a vertical high brace, and draw to the bow.
The Christie is a neat little turn that works well with the handling characteristics of touring solos; sticky bows and loose sterns. Kneeling paddlers will weight forward, pitching the bow down and increasing the stern's skid.
After the bow draw, a forward stroke pulls the canoe safely into an eddy or initiated motion in a new direction.
enjoy!
You can also visualize the Christie
by watching the stern paddler in a tandem boat doing his or her part in catching an eddy. Of course the bow draw does not apply.
The Christie is probably the first turn that sea kayakers do. A sweep on one side to deliberately induce yaw followed by a plant of the opposite paddle to the rear and a kind of flop over so that the paddle is almost flat on the water. Boat heel is easy too as you can lean on the blade.
Back to FreeStyle. The lowbrace component of the turn is very steady. This makes heeling the boat a litte more confidence building.
On the flats the Christie is a long steady secure turn that grandmas like . I had a student that was 84 and in a custom built Dandy. The christie was one of the only turns that boat could do.
On moving water it is a secure turn for those learning boat handling and getting into eddies. At the takeout, if you can get broadside to the beach, you can heel the boat toward your paddle(toward the water) and the highside of the hull can get right next to the sand… This allows a dryfoot getting out.
Glenn and Eric are absolutely correct
in my opinion.
The cross-back is absolutely vital when executing a back ferry in and across strong current when one needs to keep the downstream movement to a minimum. Especially when initiating the back ferry, using cross backs is much more effective than utilizing reverse J strokes or compound back strokes to maintain the desired ferry angle. Even though it takes time to cross over, it requires less time than it does to bring the paddle all the way forward to the correction phase of the reverse J stroke.
It also allows you to look back over alternate shoulders to make sure you maintaining the proper angle toward your target eddy, and to make sure nobody is about to run you down in a rapid.
And I agree that it is unfortunate that back ferries are no longer taught to whitewater boaters. Even with today’s short play boats, there are situations (such as offset diagonal slots) in which it is more efficient to execute a quick back ferry than it is to spin the boat 90 degrees, paddle cross current, and spin the boat back 90 degrees. A back ferry will arrest your downstream momentum much more effectively.
whitewater paddlers
generally refer to this maneuver as a “reverse sweeping low brace”.
It is very useful when entering high and tight into an eddy with a strong reversal current that would be likely to send your bow stem bashing into the rock that is creating the eddy.
In the whitewater situation, the initiation would more likely be done using a forward stroke/stern pry combo (“thumbs up J”) rather than a J-stroke and a palm roll. Palm rolling T grip paddles in whitewater is likely to result in “losing one’s grip” at the most inopportune moments.
The ratio of low brace : reverse sweep can be adjusted easily by subtle changes in blade angle as the paddle is brought forward depending on how much the paddler needs to arrest forward momentum.
The Christie’s great
advantage as CEW points out, is that it uses the classic placement for onside recovery, the low brace as a turning tool and so offers an instant recovery if needed. It is a great maneuver for students, due to this built-in security blanket.
It offers this advantage over the Duffek which I see most often on rivers as an onside heel with high brace placement.
Pag
kinda not quite
"generally refer to this maneuver as a “reverse sweeping low brace”.
Its far quieter as there is no need to put any brakes on on flatwater. The paddle just kinds of sits there on top of the water, leading edge up.
The reason I mention it is that lots of people take FreeStyle to improve their paddling on moving water. They have already had some moving water experience. And they bring with them ways to do strokes that are dynamic and reactive rather than waiting for the boat and paddle to respond. Its just the nature of the beast. On flatwater you can afford that time . On moving water you cannot.
It takes a bit of adjustment for a paddler with a river background to calm the tempo down. But once they do they catch on pretty fast. They then leave the lesson knowing at least two variations of the same thing that they can apply appropriately, depending on the situation.
For discussion…
Kim recently said something to the effect of “you can argue all day over whether the Christie is anything”. I think it was in the context of a discussion of the value of vertical paddle placements. My take: if you get the initiation, pitch and heel right… you could do all but the conclusion of a ~180 degree christie balancing the paddle on the end of your nose!
It’s a fun move, and I find it reassuring to be adopting that low brace position (especially with dog and daughter in the boat)… but unless I’m very much mistaken, the idea is basically have no pressure whatsoever on the paddle right through to the conclusion - unless it all starts going pear-shaped!
Of course… I’m good at being very much mistaken :o
A key
To all FS maneuvers is minimizing the force to prolong the impulse. Canoes are a lot like Labrador retrievers, the need a little time to get it.
If you crank, put max power, on the reverse sweeping low brace, the hull turns somewhat, but there you are, not to 90 dg and the blade is abeam and you’re done. [ Yeah, palm roll to a Duffek if you want more rotation.]
By being gentle with force loading, the hull will turn farther because moderate turning forces are acting on it for a longer time.
and the debate continues…
The issue of paddle force used on the low brace placement for the Christie has been argued quite a while. I have had FS instructors over the years insist you should be able to essentially let the paddle float and just keep it from diving; others say that you need to apply pressure, hence a reverse sweeping low brace. I teach it using the latter, a reverse sweeping low brace, as it is my contention that the paddle should be used in assisting with the turn, not just as decoration and a security blanket. The trick is to get the right amount of pressure so as not to kill the forward momentum.
Okay, opposing views can now chime in!
After you get the mechanics
– Last Updated: Nov-16-10 7:37 PM EST –
the christie is essentially a freespin. While I have not seen Marc balance the paddle on his nose in exhibitions there is plenty of fiddle room for posing and doing creative things like blowing a trumpet paddle (Time Burris in a jazz routine). Not something the wildlife cares about.
For the beginner or someone who is seeking to land and unload safely in waves on a trip far from help the bracing component is crucial.
Again similarities and differences between exhibition and practical in a wilderness setting.
most FS maneuvers
can be somewhat of a free spin, if the power strokes are technically good and the heel smooth and rock steady. So what? A Christie by definition has pressure on the blade. If it does not then it is simply a free spin, not a Christie and should be scored accordingly. Putting pressure makes for tighter rotation and changes the dynamic of the turn. Is the primary mission of a competitor to execute a classically perfect maneuver or show that they can do a free spin and balletic motions with their arm? I’d give a perfect score if the competitor could put pressure and a balletic move with the other arm! I haven’t seen that yet.
Pag
Cross Axle
– Last Updated: Nov-17-10 7:41 AM EST –
Enjoyed the Christie discussion, a maneuver named after Dana Grover's 437th girl friend, but while stunning in a touring boat, it looses dynamics in a moving water hull like a SuperNova or WildFire.
The Cross Axle is a necessary offside maneuver for river paddlers. The mirror image of the onside axle, it is an inside heeled, turning maneuver towards a cross Duffek, and turns your solo into an offside eddy.
We initiate with a sweeping forward stroke and an offside heel. Carrying the blade across the hull, we plant a Cross Duffek. The bow is drawn offside, initiating a yaw couple, and the stern skids out onside to complete the maneuver.
The Cross Axle mostly always concludes with a couple cross forwards to draw the hull into the eddy, or re-initiate headway.
A question; "Why is the Cross Axle always a tighter turn than the Onside Axle?" Hint: this is a two part answer.
nice…
I think CEW actually hit on most of the reasons this is tighter than the Axle, but for me the X-Axle is a stronger turn than the Axle because the Forward with sweep component initiation provides more power and momentum vs. the Axle init. which is a thumb down heavy correction stroke slowing the hull. Also I tend to bring the onside knee forward and toward the offside which weights the bow and lifts the stern. And third, the bio mechanics of the X-Bow Draw conclusion provides great leverage and one of the stronger strokes in canoeing. Just my $00.02 worth, trying to keep it simple.
Pag
More than That
– Last Updated: Nov-17-10 11:57 AM EST –
Pag's response is worth more than the $0.02 he's asking, but there is one more factor contribution to faster rotation than the onside axle.
Hmmmm…
– Last Updated: Nov-17-10 12:32 PM EST –
Thinking this through:
Initiation: already mentioned
Pitch: already mentioned
Heel: presumably identical
Placement: ?
Conclusion: already mentioned
Do paddlers generally manage a better placement on the off-side? Closer to the hull?
Or is it the fact that the lower arm reaching across the body is better bio-mechanically (so as the boat slows it's feasible to open the face earlier / further)?
for most folks the placement
occurs further forward thus speeding up the stern skid?