There you have it!
The cross placement is almost always more vertical and forward of the onside placement and paddle angle, and the rotation to achieve it winds up a lot of power.
Backferries in WW
I know this is a little off topic, but its been an interesting discussion. I’m not sure I agree that backferries aren’t used by newer boaters. I’m a relatively new boater, and I do use them. I’ll use a backferry for a temporary pause to line up on a shoot or to give the paddler in front of me some room. For an offside ferry, I’d use a backstroke with a cross bow draw. I’ve never considered using a cross backstroke, but I’ll have to try that. For an onside ferry, I’d use a reverse sweep.
I will admit that in a “must do” situation, I’d probably try to spin the boat to get to my stronger forward ferry. I’m not in a micro boat by any means – I paddle an old Encore – but if the rapids are too big for me to spin the boat, I probably wouldn’t be able to hold a backferry either. I guess it depends on how close I am to the obstruction, and how likely I am to get pinned or to have to run the rapid backwards.
This is a great thread - looking forward to some more.
Torso flexibility
will limit the paddle excursion that you can achieve on the cross back stroke, obviously. The cross back just requires a bit more torso twist than the cross bow draw.
It maintains or corrects your angle on a back ferry in a similar way, but is more effective in slowing the boat.
Although it takes some flexibility to get there, and the paddle excursion may be less than you would like it too be,(depending on your flexibility), the “wound up” position of your torso provides great mechanical advantage to the stroke. The unwinding effect of the powerful torso muscles provides for a very strong, if short stroke.
Ideally, correcting or maintaining a ferry angle is best done at the downstream end of the boat (the stern for a forward ferry and the bow for a back ferry), since that end of the boat is “loose” and not pinned by the current.
On the back ferry, however, having the paddle extended forward toward the bow and applying a lateral corrective force with a reverse J stroke is so mechanically weak that I find it simply doesn’t work in very strong current. It might be OK in more moderate current once your angle has been established using a combination of back strokes and either cross backs or cross bow draws, however.
I find back ferries much more difficult than forward ferries, and I think that is true for most folks. For one thing, the strokes are harder. For another, one can’t easily see the exact angle of the upstream end of the boat to the current (although looking back over your shoulder on the cross back helps a lot there). I find I need to practice back ferries much more frequently than I need to use them, if I want to have that option available in a whitewater situation.
An important concept for tandem paddlers is that although the stern paddler sets and maintains the angle on a forward ferry, the bow paddler must set and correct the angle on a back ferry. This is especially tough because again the bow paddler has a very limited view of the angle of the upstream end of the boat to the current.
I find backferries harder too
than front ferries and the reverse J very wimpish.
It seems to help “unpin” the stern end by unweighting that end a bit to loosen it up.
I remember on an Arctic trip we did when we were just starting out expedition tandem, we had a morning of backferry practice. That the Dall sheep were also watching must have meant we were entertaining.
We experimented with various load distributions and found that the stern paddler really did better coming forward.
The bow paddler( me) had to keep that angle and it was tough. Its funny how bow paddlers get used often as ballast. As you grow more in paddling skills, the hard moves are increasingly dependent on the bow paddler doing the right move.
great discussion
I’ll ad that backferries are also more difficult because of differential rocker. They were easier with my symetrical Supernova than with my Shaman. Good news is I’ll have the chance to practice some this afternoon. Pyker and I slipping out of work to hit the Connie. I’ll also be practicing the cross reverse. It seems essential to me too. But whenever I do one I find myself wishing my paddler was a little shorter.
How come? NM
Cross Post - Marc lost in SC
This is our situation. Marc is apparently lost in the swamps of South Carolina an it time ti move on to the Cross Post, another useful offside maneuver.
Many find this easier than the Cross Axle, and it is certainly a faster turn because the bows are carving into the spin.
From forward, we initiate with a sweeping forward stroke and heel the boat onside, engaging bow deflection into the turn. Carrying the blade across the bow with torso rotation, we plant a Cross Duffek, deepening the heel once the blade is in the water, and coming up off the seat to further pitch the bow down and increase the carve into the maneuver.
As the stern skid weakens, we cross draw to the bow and conclude with a couple Cross Forward strokes.
This is a much snappier turn than the Cross Axle; obviously because the bow is carving, but why else?
I going to try it this weekend
Having a hard time visualizing the mechanics of a cross backstroke - maybe it will be easier in the boat.
Reverse J is definitely a wimpy stroke. Even in flatwater I’ll do a backstroke with a crossbow draw instead - quicker, easier, more power. I’m probably just too lazy to get the technique down for the reverse J.
Cross back uses the power face
Go to your cross-bow draw position and just keep twisting your torso until your shoulder plane is at least square to the beam of the boat, but preferably facing sternward a bit. Your grip arm will be pretty scrunched up, and it takes a little practice at first to get the blade smoothly planted because your arm motion is limited.
Plant the blade with the power face facing the bow. The power of the stroke is almost entirely from the untwisting of the torso muscles. When you are kneeling and securely backed up by a pedestal, the force is transmitted very effectively into slowing the boat.
Back from SC
I’m sorry to be so long away from this thread that I started but I had to make a choice. It was, pay to stay in a motel in town with WiFi. or stay for free in a lakeside cottage without WiFi. I thought about that for about 2, no make that 1 nanosecond, before selecting the cottage. Within walking distance of the cottage was the shop of master canoe builder Tom Mackenzie, which is where I had the privilege of spending most of my time. My thanks to Charlie for keeping this thread moving and adding interest to it.
As to the question posed, I suspect it has to do with the conclusion. When in the cross post position, the conclusion works in concert with returning the boat to level and also that the paddle placement is truly beneath the hull, closer to the pivot point.
Dun’t knows 'bout everybody else…
– Last Updated: Nov-19-10 5:50 PM EST –
but ah's really confused now!
Somehow ah's jus' stick de paddle in, twoyl it around a'might an' ah' gits waar ah's wantin' ta go....
Anywho, thanky kindly ta all ye pilgrims fer de great advice.
Now, ah's reckons ah's got'ta go an' paddle de Batsto a'gin ta git me mind right.
FE
I will give it my two cents…
The onside heel can be hit quicker to induce the more aggressive bow carve?
Good thing you told me
because that wasn’t how I was visualizing it. That’s going to be tough on the grip hand shoulder. In water recovery?
Ah, the X-Post
has it all. 1) The sweeping forward initiation for max turning without lose of speed, 2) Heeling the side away from the turn resulting in a parabolic waterline shape, the max footprint for a snappy turn, 3) Good bio-mechanical body position for weighting the bow and the more easy achieved vertical shaft in a bit forward position, 4) The strong X-Bow draw conclusion. All the best combined. Back in the day, I added an onside sweep at the end of the conclusion for a near 360.
Pag
Or else
just get yourself a nice little trolling motor.
Good question
I think I would have to do it to figure out for sure what I do.
I don’t actually link cross back strokes too often, but when I do I’m pretty sure I slice the blade out of the water laterally at the end of the stroke and, as I twist back again, skim the back face over the water surface and then slice it back in the water at the plant.
Snap also comes from
the fact that most folks try to counteract the heel away from the turn which they find unsettling, with additional pressure on the blade to give a feeling of a brace. Additional pressure means the hull moves more quickly. That’s true in all maneuvers whether the maneuver is starting you , stopping you, or changing direction.
FE would be disentanglin himself
all day with a trolling motor on the Batsto…I hope the water came up a little.
Otherwise just stay with two moves. Cross Posts and Posts as you don’t have to sink the paddle all the way in.
You takin’ the Nomad FE?
Perhaps before the weekend is over
the Riddler will reveal “the” answer.
Marc
Tried it yesterday
Went to my local playspot and practiced back ferries for a little while. The cross backstroke isn’t that hard to do, and it does add a lot of power. I agree with Glen - alternating backstrokes with cross backstrokes seemed to work best for me. Not only could I stop the forward momentum, but I could actually move back upstream as I ferried across. There was a lot more power in the reverse backstroke, so my onside stroke tended to be more of a reverse sweep to help maintain the ferry angle. My technique isn’t the best, but it worked:
http://outdoors.webshots.com/video/3069915600075003331IRfrPM
Thanks guys - learned something new.