re: JackL’s ladder comment
Some thoughts and observations:
–
Just because a contractor doesn’t use bow and stern lines when tying down a ladder means what, exactly? [my interpretation: not all contractor’s are smart].
–
I have a lumber/ladder rack on my pickup. Now granted, I’m just a dumb landlord and not a contractor but I once lost a ladder which is why I no longer use bungee cords for tying anything down.
–
When hauling canoes I do not use bow and stern lines as less than 3-feet of boat extends beyond the rack at each end.
But, if one of my two straps does get loose I do have a third strap that loops through a thwart as a fail-safe, shit happens backup that will keep my boat on, or very near, the truck.
–
Judging by the intensity of belief and certitude from those that only tie-down their boats in a half-assed manner, I guess the lesson to be learned is that there are a disturbing number of people in this world who only think of themselves and don’t give a fig about anyone else.
Recap
Let's see if I can recap the "cons" for using front/rear tie-downs:
1. Absolute confidence in the primary means of attachment, therefore no need for tie-downs
2. The extra time it takes
3. The cost of the tie-downs
4. A tie-down might come loose and get wrapped around the axle
5. The front strap is annoying to look at
6. No place on vehicle to secure the tie-downs
7. An alternative to tie-downs that serves as a backup to the primary means of attachment
8. If primary attachment fails, the boat will just "float" along with the car and not cause any problem unless someone's tailgating.
9. Short distance to put-in, slow speed, light traffic
10. Inability to access rear door of vehicle with rear tie-down
My comments:
1. I'll buy #7
2. Re: #8, are you kidding me!!!! If I see a boat "float" into the air off a vehicle in front of me on the interstate, my spontaneous reaction will be to slam on my brakes or take evasive action. In traffic, either action could be disastrous.
3. Re: #6, although difficult with some vehicles, thus far I've always found a way
4. #1 seems to be the most common reason given, but I don't buy it personally. Sxxx happens. I've experienced totally unexpected mechanical failures of various products or mechanisms in the past, as have probably most posters. Who's to say the rack or strap won't be the next one?
My conclusion:
I'm going to continue to build in redundancy in my yak attachment system, be it tie-downs or something else that will serve the same purpose. The downside is simply not worth the risk, even if the risk is minimal that the primary attachment method will fail (and, has been pointed out on this thread and others, they DO fail albeit rarely).
It don’t matter…
If, for whatever reason, a boat comes off your rack, and someone ends up catching it with their face, it don't matter.......
They were predestined to die from a canoe/kayak coming through their windshield. The police, the victim's insurance company, and their lawyer will understand that it was just fate.
Maybe.
Maybe not.
Saw a 17 foot Grumman pop 2 ropes used as tie downs(no end lines). Vehicle it came off of was doing about 60 mph. Grumman sailed about 20 feet high over the oncoming lane of traffic, and ended up on the opposite side of the road (probably 50 feet)in the ditch. Ended up real close to the car that hit the same ditch to avoid the airborne Grumman. Trailer truck behind car that went into ditch locked up his brakes; driver did a hell of a job keeping trailer from fishtailing into traffic.
I use 2 NRS straps, plus bow & stern tiedowns on each boat that goes on my rack. I don't tailgate. My bow/stern tie downs cost me about
3 percent of the cheapest boat I own. Anyone who has knots coming loose on bow/stern tie down does "knot" know diddly about knots. Takes about 10 minutes to secure 4 bow/stern lines. If 10 minutes puts me behind; I didn't plan very well.
There is no car/truck made where you can't find a place to secure bow/stern lines.
Your car, your boats; do as you wish.
Some of the excuses used are pretty lame.
BOB
Redundant
…
5. Engineering. …
d. (of a device, circuit, computer system, etc.) having excess or duplicate parts that can continue to perform in the event of malfunction of some of the parts.
Jim
I will reiterate one my reasons for not
using them…
“Sometimes I don’t use them. I live about 2 blocks from a boat launch in a residential area and never get above 15 mph when I drive there. Taking 5 minutes to put on tie downs is 5 times longer than the drive to the boat launch. Of course, putting the kayak on a little cart and walking down to the launch takes about the same amount of time.”
Just something to think about for those of you that insist bow and stern tie downs should be used all the time.
The only reason I think of for using bow and stern tie downs all the time is out of habit. If you do it out of habit and are worried that breaking the habit, even once, will cause you to not do it in the future then please use them all the time.
Must be an anarchist 
Heck of a thought for an ex-Marine, huh? For once I was even smart - stayed out of this one.
sxxx happens
Earlier this summer I was carrying a friend’s Wenonah just a short distance so we didn’t tie it down real good either, thinking it’s less than a mile and we won’t be doing even 25 mph.
Result: two blocks later a line comes loose and the front of the canoe comes off the rack and grinds into the asphalt before the stern crashes down besides my stopped vehicle.
We felt (and still do feel) pretty stupid as there’s nothing like being in the middle of the main street of a small town – where everyone knows your name – picking up a canoe that fell off your vehicle.
I hope your confidence and certitude pays off better than ours did!
10-minute tie-downs
Hey Bob, I’ve seen you load your boats, and I don’t think it takes you any more than 10 minutes to secure ALL of your tie-downs, on 2 boats no less, so I’d say you were being pretty generous with your time estimate for tying bow/stern lines. Yeah, and I agree with what you say about lines coming loose and causing other troubles, because “proper” knots are not only very easy and fast to secure, they don’t come loose by themselves (unless maybe you are using cheap, stiff, three-braid poly rope, but then, whose fault would that be?).
Thank goodness the peanut gallery
responded!
You came in right on schedule.
Many thanks for the ten bucks I just won.
Cheers,
JackL
that would be 2 points of failure
both of which caused by either your knots or rope weak enough to be broken easily.
“…we didn’t tie it down real good…” - not to be harsh, those are your words and they indicate the problem was not rack failure or rope failure but user failure. Not checking ropes/straps before you use them is also user failure.
I don’t cut corners tying knots and always tie them down real good, so I am pretty sure my kayak won’t fall off of my car in those conditions. In fact… as a test I put a kayak on top of my car with no straps of any kind and drove to the boat launch turned around and drove back at normal speeds. Don’t worry no one was around and no one was hurt - even the kayak. That is right it didn’t fall off. Would I do it again? NO!!! But I thought I would try it out.
I don’t travel far
and what I do drive, I drive at a low speed
but as soon as I take it out on the interstate, I tie down the ends, just like you
JackL: What two vehicles are you using
that you use to transport your kayaks? What is the rack spread of the cross bars on each vehicle? How long are your boats? Perhaps for your particular vehicle there is not too much torque that affects your boats because the crossbars are so far from each other? Which Yakima saddles are you using?
Thanks,
Jeff
front only
I use two belly straps and a front strap only. The canoe stays on the car for about 5 months out of the year and the car has a rear door which can’t open with the rear strap in use.
Recap Update
I just updated my post titled “Recap” to add two additional reasons cited for not using front/rear tie-downs.
don’t make blanket statements
A ford is nothing but a ford. Other manufacturers have sturdier racks.
now that’s the real problem
IMO there are much greater incidences of losing a boat because of poor fastening than because of the absence of front and rear tie downs. but no agitation here about that issue. Hmm. Are bow and stern tie downs a cheap insurance policy for poor fastening, not checking one’s knots and racks?
so what if
the tie downs fail?
Where’s the redundancy for that possibility?
at no point
At no point did I mean to imply that I was perfect.
And as to the bad knot scenario, let us for the moment assume none of you have ever tied a bad knot.
Perhaps you are young and innocent; perhaps you are older and stubborn.
Someday, somewhere, despite your record (or belief for you older and stubborn ones) your record of perfection is going to come to an abrupt end and when it does, wouldn’t you rather have more than two tiedowns holding your beloved boat onto the roof of your vehicle?
I just used my story to illustrate a point.
And BTW, I do tie good knots. My dad was a sailor and he taught me how to tie knots with my eyes closed at a young age.
The bridge you drive over on the way to work every day might collapse tomorrow morning. Shit happens and when all we’re talking about here is a few minutes, what’s the point of not taking a moment to add an extra tiedown, or two?
I’d be willing to bet you drive on the right side of the highway, and you wear your seat belts while driving and you wear your PFDs while boating, and you probably don’t drink while doing either, so what’s the big deal about endangering the lives of others by insisting on your “right” to have the freedom not to properly secure a boat to your vehicle?
Perhaps, when the day comes and you lose your boat (and barring a miracle it WILL come), you are secure in the knowledge that you won’t suffer any bodily harm and as to the boat, well things are just things. But to follow this chain of thought will bring us to the ugly side of P-Net so perhaps we should just all agree that we live amongst other people that we share the earth with and it is in everyone’s best interest if we all do the right thing (i.e. proper tiedowns), even if we don’t want to.
you are welcome
isn’t payback a great thing.
And I earnestly await and look forward to all of yours.
p.s. Give me your best shot as I’m out of town for a long weekend beginning NOW
ta ta
Overheard at a Ballgame
(uttered by one of two very drunk truck drivers in the row behind me):
“My motto is don’t drink and drive . . . very far!!”