The other side of the coin
…and I am not arguing for or against them. Just relating an incident.
Two years ago my wife was stopped at a red light in our little Ford Escape. Both of our QCC’s were strapped on the Yakama racks with double looped camlock buckle straps, and no front or rear tie downs.
She was rear ended by a young boy who later told the investigating officer that he had leaned down to pick up a cigarette that he had dropped on the floor and didn’t realize that the line of traffic in front of him was stopped.
There were no skid marks and the impact of his car drove our car into the one in front, and the officer estimated that he was going 35MPH upon impact.
His car was totaled. Ours had several thousand dollars worth of damage , and the one that ours was driven into had several thousand dollars damage.
Luckily for him, his car was a sports car, and the kayaks were above his roof.
The kayaks and rack never moved an inch!
Cheers,
JackL
ditto panic stops
a friend was at an intersection slowing down, he was rear ended , when his car hit the stopped truck in front the disloded rack kept going,,,with the 19' kayak and rack resting on the truck bed held in place by bow lines.
Without the bow line his neednose boat would have gone into the trucks back window.
Sounds like one can draw a few conclusions. Anecdotal evidence is powerful. Attaching the racks well is essential. Bow/stern lines work if the rack fails. You can't pick and chose the accident or the forces involved.
Unguided Missles
Would you all stop drivin’ around with them unguided missles on the tops of your dang ve-hic-u-lars? Don’t you know that’s dangerous, either with or without straps?
when called for
i use front tie downs. Rear tie downs are an invitation to bending your boat. ( see the Northwest canoe shoppes stories. ) On my Pick up truck i religiosly always use Front tiedowns since my rack is not rated to handle the wind forces on th efront rack. On my Sturn I only used the front tie downs at high way speeda.
Final Summary
Lots of good opinion and certainly a topic with divergent opinions. From this and other similar threads, the main reasons folks don’t use front/rear tie-downs comes down to these:
- Those who feel they have a foolproof primary attachment system and that redundancy is, therefore, unnecessary.
My comment: These folks assume s?#? doesn’t happen, at least to them.
- Those who use an alternative form of redundancy to front/rear tie-downs
My comment: I’m OK with this rationale. Personally, I feel some form of redundancy is a good idea – the approach to that redundancy is irrelevant as long as it’s effective.
- Not used when going short distance at slow speed and in light light traffic
My comment: Got to admit that I’ve not used tie-downs in this type of situation. However, based on the experience of a couple of posters, I intend to do so in the future.
- Tie-down could come loose and wrap around axle.
My comment: Although certainly possible, taking care and using the appropriate knot(s) should make this very unlikely, as other posters have noted.
- Rear tie-down restricts access to rear hatch.
My comment: I have same situation, but have found undoing the rear tie-down temporarily and then re-securing it takes about a minute. Not really a significant time consideration.
- No place to secure tie-downs on vehicle
My comment: I’ve always found a way. Other posters seem to agree.
- If attachment method fails, boat will “float” along with vehicle and only tailgaters would be at risk.
My comment: You gotta be kidding me! Wonder what your reaction would be if you saw a boat “float” off the vehicle in front of you on a crowded interstate.
- Front tie-down is annoying to look at while driving
My comment: For me, seeing a stable front tie-down (vs. one that’s moving side to side in the wind), is kind of comforting. Also, reducing risk usually entails some “cost” and this “cost” seems relatively minor. However, I recognize that having the front tie-down in the field of vision is probably very annoying to some individuals.
Some Final Impressions:
I think I’ve covered all the reasons given for not using tie-downs. It’s interesting to me that NOBODY mentioned the extra time it takes to use tie-downs as the reason for not using them (I did mention this in my original post that started this thread and, I believe, one other person mentioned the extra time it took was a factor when traveling a very short distance). I’ve gotta believe that the extra time it takes is probably the primary reason MOST (not ALL) people don’t use tie-downs, but don’t want to own up to it because it seems such a trivial reason given that it would only add a few extra minutes per trip. Did this thread change anyone’s mind about using tie-downs? Maybe, but probably not. It did, however, convince me that there’s no substantive reason why not to use them (other than an alternate redundancy approach) and, in fact, will cause me to use them in the future even on short trips.
I don’t care what you think
I still like chunky peanut butter best.
Andy
Missing Points
You did not address the tie downs and the possibility of them ruining your paint. How do you prevent that?
I use rear but am looking at a way to attach to the front of my vehicle. the only attachment point I have is the frame under the front of my vehicle, which is not a great place.
You also mentions that it is unlikely that a front tie down will get caught in the axle but also say s*** happens. S*** could happen with the front tie down and not the kayak so I think you provided an incomplete argument there.
I currently am thinking a piece of metal attached to the vehicle that sticks out a few inches to keep the rope off the paint and short enough so it cannot reach any moving parts if it fails.
There’s always a way
I have welded tow hooks onto a few different vehicles, and I built the rear bumper of my current car from scratch (that bumper incorporates a heavy-duty trailer hitch, tow hooks, and four tie-down points for boat ropes), and I know how easy it would be to install your own tie-down points if you really wanted to (or you could pay someone to spend half an hour doing it for you). Lots of people here use nylon straps anchored under the hood, which only stick out between the hood and fender when needed. They work great, and can be installed in minutes on ANY car.
"Real" knots do not come untied. I don't care what anyone says. Learn how to tie knots. If you still don't trust that to be true, simply use enough rope that your tautline hitch or turcker's hitch is visible above the hood. Then you can watch it as you drive down the road, if that'll make you feel better.
As far as ropes damaging your paint, that's pretty minimal, as I've found it takes many seasons of constant boat-carrying for any visible amoubnt of wear and tear to show up on the paint. If that's not the case for you, try using softer rope, and keep those ropes pretty tight, not loose and floppy. On my personal car, at least 80 percent of all the miles I drive between May and October is with at least one boat on top, and that's been true for the last 5 years. I'm just beginning to see some marks on the paint where the front tie-downs wrap over the front of the hood, and I'm not sure it's not just dirty smudges rather than actual scuffs (I don't keep the car's exterior all that clean sometimes). On that note, look at what happens every time someone posts a question about scratching their boats. Ninety percent of the people answering the question say not to worry about it, that it's part of what happens when you use a boat. Why isn't the same true for cars? A car is just a tool also - a means to an end that moves you and your stuff from Point A to Point B. Do you really care that much about a few minor scuff marks after five years or more of hauling boats?
Soft Vinyl Tubing
I run my tie-downs through a piece of soft vinyl tubing that I purchased at the local hardware store. Once I've secured the tie-down, I just slip the tubing to the point that comes in contact with the paint. So far, no problems.
Re: the possibility of a tie-down coming loose, I DID acknowledge that it was possible, but indicated I felt there were ways to make it unlikely. Of course, anything is possible, no matter what precautions are taken.
Easy fixes
You did not address the tie downs and the possibility of them ruining your paint. How do you prevent that?
Thread the rope through vinyl tubing or place a piece of 3M protector (can’t remember the name, but it’s a clear stick on film that protects the paint from scuffs and rock chips) anywhere rope rubs
I use rear but am looking at a way to attach to the front of my vehicle. the only attachment point I have is the frame under the front of my vehicle, which is not a great place.
Pop the hood. You’ll see all kinds of small holes stamped in body panels. Attach nylon strap loops to the holes closest to the hood/fender seam. Pull the loops through the seam when you need them and stow them underneath when you don’t. Works great for me. Under the rear of the vehicle, there are usually stamped holes in the body and frame large hooks can be attached to. Use your brain, get creative!
You also mentions that it is unlikely that a front tie down will get caught in the axle but also say s*** happens. S*** could happen with the front tie down and not the kayak so I think you provided an incomplete argument there.
Since the front/rear tiedowns are not the main load bearing attachment method, the likelihood of their failure is low.
In the event of an accident, there’s a tiny chance a seatbelt could hurt you. Do you avoid seatbelts? Better that your boat or car suffers damage because of faulty tie-downs that an innocent bystander.
Phreon
As Mike
McCrea says.....
http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2098431630094647494bXuMnE
Dats how ah' does it, too fer me short boats. Anything longer ah' have SS eyebolts in me' front bumper mounts an' a trailer hitch on de rear.
Sorry, JackL - but ah' dun't consider me'self a sheep (maybe a low down polecat) and ah' use stem tie downs - ALWAYS! Ah's fixed more than a few kayaks over de years dat got road rash after fallin' off cars due to either crummy rack tiedowns or rack failure (yup, it do happen, ah' seen it a number of times).
Fat Elmo
Keeps the Rack on the Car
Ok I use front and rear tie downs firmly attached to the kayak in addition to regular tie downs.
Why? Because I am worried about the rack flying off the roof of the damn car that’s why.
With a modern gutterless setup the amount of grip the rack has on the car is not enough vs the potential force generated by a 16 foot boat.
However on my truck I tend to use end ties but don’t consider it very necessary due the way the rack attaches to my truck.
Quoting JackL<
“I personally think any one who uses foam blocks is flirting with trouble even if they have front and rear tie downs.”
I think I will have to have a word with Jack next time I see him regarding his elitist snob foam block comment.
But then again, what should I expect from a tie down criminal
bow and stern tie downs–not too tight
some people use them and some don't---may be good insurance if your regular cinch buckle straps come loose but be real careful not to tie the bow and stern down real tight---particularly in a rotomolded boat but even in a FG---the reason is that if you are in a J cradle, you can warp the boat out of line to the right or the left if it is tied tight for a long period of time in the hot sun. If you use V cradles and tie it tight fore and aft, the boat has a tendancy to hogback----not as likly to do so on FG models but still possible so if you do tie down tightly---the bow and stern lines should just have enough tension to keep the boat on top of the vehicle while you stop the car and fix the buckle straps--and btw you should be using a j or v rack, either yakima or thule (or some other reputable make) and buckling it down with one inch wide buckle straps---if you are just using foam blocks and bow and stern straps you are asking for trouble
reason not to use tie downs
if they are too tight they can cause warping in a RM boat–see my message below
hogback
then there’s Perception Shadow/Eclipse that’ll hogback from it’s own weight.
Is this thing still going on???
C’mon folks, more than likely, everything that needs to be said, every point that needs to be made, has been made, ad infinitum, ad nauseum. Move on. Go paddling.
Advice
I was soliciting advice. Sorry to keep the thread open longer than it should be.
ALWAYS TIE DOWN!
Once in a hurry from the Nescopeck in Pennsylvania I didn’t tie down front and back.
At sixty-five miles an hour on Rte 81 I watched two canoes and a kayak rise about 10 feet above my car and sail down a sixty-foot embankment and land in the tops of a bunch of trees.
ALWAYS TIE DOWN! The Voice of Experience…
A friend of mine…
…once drove well over a hundred miles of twisty, hilly Ozarks roads…his canoe held on only by the bow line, tied to the front bumper…no stern tie-down, no straps across the boat. The boat rode all the way home, resting on a couple of 2x4 “quick & easy” racks. Needless to say, he about s**t his pants when he got home and started to unload his canoe!!!
I always have to tie my 18ft
kevlar Champlain with two front ropes or I spend lots of time on the side of the road tightening straps. One rope isn’t enough. I even have Yakima gunnel brackets but frequently crosswinds move them or when the straps loosen the canoe jumps over the brackets. I don’t worry about the canoe leaving the roof though since I have a security cable on the canoe through the racks. With two ropes in the front, however, the canoe never moves even in the strongest crosswind.