I went to Alder Creek kayak shop today to pick up a new lime on white Tempest 180. Brought in my three battery MagLite flashlight and asked if I could have 10 minutes to look it over. No problem. The staff expected me to. The staff seemed knowledgeable and friendly.
On my second go around, I found one spider crack area in the gel coat, about 2 inch dia., located about 48” back from the point of the bow, a few inches in front of the forward hatch cover, starboard side, starting just about ½ inch up from the keel. Brian, and the shop manager, Shawn (sp?), checked it out. I think Brian thought it was a little soft there. Shawn thought the fiberglass was OK. I asked if the gel cracks themselves were a structural problem. He said no. I thought the whole 6 inch or so area there flexed more on the starboard than on the port side, maybe slightly thicker layup on the port side. (I’m careful here not to sound negative and say “thinner on the starboard side” :->) After getting it home I think it might be a little soft right in the area of the spider cracks. There’s no visible damage to the fiber glass though.
Shawn offered me a second lime on green boat that had come in a couple weeks earlier, new, in the shop. On inspection though, that one had three spider crack areas. Like on "my" boat, you wouldn’t see them unless you were looking for them. Shawn said they’ve had a lot of trouble with shipping. He also offered me a yellow on white T180 in another Alder Creek shop down town. I figured if the first two had spider cracks in the gel, the third probably would too, and I preferred the lime green anyway.
Shawn wanted to have the gel coat repaired and I could pick the boat up in a couple weeks. I suggested that since the gel cracks aren’t a structural problem, how about if I take the boat now, and bring it back later to have the gel repaired. He agreed. He was basically happy with whatever remedy I wanted. He wrote me up an order for the repair. I figure if I notice any other problems in the first few weeks, they can fix those at the same time. I live 100 miles from the shop.
Got the boat home, turned it upside down in the lawn, good light, and found another gel spider crack, 60 inches forward from the point of the stern, starboard side also, 4 inches down from the deck/hull seam, also about 2 inch dia. Fiberglass looks and feels fine. I’ll let Shawn know tomorrow. My guess is the same mishap caused both cracks in the gel.
I found one back post, Nov 2004, searching for “gel crack” in the subject line. Based on that conversation, I think I made the right decision. Being a novice, I’ll be lucky if I don’t do worse to it in the first few months. It does bother me a bit that the boat got knocked around, but not enough to wait for the perfect boat to pass my inspection :-). Shawn said they weren't getting any more T180s in until fall.
Paul S.
Have fun with this one Steve …
I think Brian thought it was a little soft there. Shawn thought the fiberglass was OK. I asked if the gel cracks themselves were a structural problem. He said no. I thought the whole 6 inch or so area there flexed more on the starboard than on the port side, maybe slightly thicker layup on the port side. (I’m careful here not to sound negative and say “thinner on the starboard side” :->) After getting it home I think it might be a little soft right in the area of the spider cracks. There’s no visible damage to the fiber glass though.
Secondary thread might also throw some light on the subject...
http://www.paddling.net/message/showThread.html?fid=advice&tid=506402
Paul, now I have never seen the boat so no grasping or making some pretty big assumptions here as to how it happened but i would like to offer my opinion.
Great work by the dealer to keep you satisfied, too bad the people selling these cannot go get a quick course on diagnosis so they can make some more educated choices as to whether to sell, replace or repair boat BEFORE customer gets involved.
The decision is all up to you, sounds like you really gave the boat a real look over and I am sure the dealer knows he has a nice customer in your being understanding and flexible of the situation but you have a choice to make.
If you can live with the cracks ( and figure you are soon enough going to put a few of your own in ) then you might be better off having the fiberglass guy take a good look at them with you there and advising / educating you ( and the dealer) of your options on the spot rather than simply submitting it for repairs that : ... Might not have to be done, are much larger than you anticipated, or will yield a really ugly looking boat that has the 'repaired' cracks coming right back the first time you put the boat in your racks.
Or wait for a new boat .... suggest leaving the flashlight out of it....... too much for a boatbuilders heart to take..
Shame
It is a shame to have that kind of issue with any boat let alone a brand new one not even home yet. The gel coat crack itself certainly is not structural, the gelcoat is not part of the structure of the boat. However, you have to ask yourself how did both boats get so many cracks already. As the hull flexes the gel coat could crack. This could be several things. Not all gelcoat is equal, some is less flexable, more brittle than others. Yep, could have been shipping and have nothing to do with the structure of the boat. If you detect the area under the cracks as more flexable than other areas that are not cracked, as you indicated, I would sure wonder about the glass.
Mark
Definitely not during transport home.
"Secondary thread might also throw some light on the subject…
http://www.paddling.net/message/showThread.html?fid=advice&tid=506402 "
Not sure if you were suggesting that the gel crack that I saw when I got home was from tie down on my racks. I don’t think that was the case. Front bar was positioned between the front of the cockpit opening and the front hatch. Gel crack was forward of the front hatch and on the side.
Paul S.
I should point out
the only other post I found with "gel crack" in the subject line was also by an engineer. http://www.paddling.net/message/showThread.html?fid=advice&tid=263947 He was looking at QCCs though. I almost left the manufacturer out of it, as the issue doesn't necessarily indicate a problem with the manufacturer.
I was an engineer for 15 years in the semiconductror industry, earlier in photolithography and wet etch, later in metrology, visual inspection, and process contro. Now I'm an engineering manager in metrology, visual inspection, and process control.
I wonder if the spider cracks is a fairly regular thing, even on new boats, and most people just don't notice. You have to look close. Part of me wanted to pull 10 boats at random at the shop and inspect them for gel cracks to try to answer this question. I was too tired though, not to mention wanting to preserve my relationship with the shop.
Shawn was great though, IMO. He'll have them repaired at my convenience. If I had chose to walk away from the sale he would have been fine with that too.
As an asside, the foot pegs were too short also. He removed them and set me up with close celled foam, band sawed to the shape of the front bulkhead, plus shims, no charge. I know, $10 to him, but helped me out, especially the band sawing to the right starting shape.
Paul S.
good advice
"you might be better off having the fiberglass guy take a good look at them with you there and advising / educating you"
Great idea. I’ll try to arange that.
Thanks.
If you guys would skip the gelcoat,
you would not suffer from gelcoat neurosis.
triple ouch!
we have been having some major shipping and handling issue lately…a very large bummer. thanks goodness we’re seeing a big improvement, of late!!
composite boats ARE ‘relatively’ tough. just today I slipped into a pourover-trough out in a rock garden and hit so hard they heard the ‘pop’ 100 yards away, over the sound of the surf! and guess what? I had a 1 inch microscopic scratch in the hull. but pile a couple Pungos on top of her and drive it across the US of A in the back of a semi and some nasty gel coat spider webs are bound to happen…
sorry Paul.
Yes, Jerry, the AC glass guy will do a bang-up job on your boat repairing the gel and (if it is) soft spot. he’ll reinforce, if necessary. Shawn is top notch and has been involved in composites for close to 15 years. he knows his stuff.
again… sorry.
steve
Not your fault Steve
You’re the designer, right? I bought the boat because of the design. However, looking from the outside in, which is usually sufficient, I’m not too impressed with management ;-).
Paul S.
Easy fix
"…but pile a couple Pungos on top of her and drive it across the US of A in the back of a semi and some nasty gel coat spider webs are bound to happen…"
Then, why don’t they crate them? What’s another $100, for a boat this expensive? It costs more than that to refinish. Senseless damage, even if only cosmetic.
not crating
simply tying them on a rack in a big container truck and not under other boats is a simple solution. I’ve seen kayak shippers do that, a big 40’ truck with cross bars holding tied on kayaks.
I can’t imagine anyone shipping a composite boat with 45lb plastic boats bouncing on top for days. That has got to be a typo on Steves part. you serious Steve that’s now the composite kayaks are shipped with 100’s lbs of rec boats on top?
"a little soft"
it’s normal for flat sections of hull to flex easily but it definately shouldn’t be “soft”.
I wouldn’t worry too much about random gel coat cracks. There’s an unfortunate expectation that a gel coated fiberglass boat should look crack free because that’s the way it comes out of the mold and that’s now big heavy fiberglass boats are made but the challenge to make something light and sturdy without having core material everywhere results in some areas of flexing next to rigid structures. So low stress events can make cracks develop in some areas. Unfortunately it doesn’t take much in normal handling of a 18’ 55lb kayak where all the weight might rest on an edge of a rack or truck to ellicit the “crick” sound.
If I had it to do over again
I would have asked for $100 off for the spider cracks. I had only seen one while in the store. I might still be able to swing that. Shawn said the cost to have the guy do the repair was $125 for approx. 2 inch area. Not sure if the store pays the same. If so, that’s $250. Shoot, for $200 off, I’d be glad the boat had the gel cracks. Maybe that’s the way I should say it to Shawn. If he really pays $250, he’d save $50 and have a truley happy customer. Nothing happy about my driving 400 miles to fix this, 100 miles each way, twice.
Paul S.
I understand the frustration
but if every shop discounted every composite kayak for every small gel coat fracture,crack,wear spot I’m pretty sure it would not be economically worthwhile to sell them or the price on every kayak would have to go up to compensate for the returns/repairs.
Again, I cannot fault you for wanting a flawless boat for the cost of a glass or kevlar boat. I sure have on the five composite boats I’ve bought over the last 15yrs. For that much money you’d think the experimentation by kayak companies in transition would be over but it seems to be like the restaurant business.
“the mahi is very good today, and the chef is found some excellent chantrelles at the market”
I can understand why heavy glass boats are worthwhile, the boat just chips away like a rock while lighter, thinner, more flexible composites announce their “peculiarities” in different ways.
For other Buyers, don’t take delivery
I have experienced this type of problem on a boat I took delivery of that was shipped to me. Search the archives and there are plenty of stories just like this.
Boat Buyers: What other industry with products in the $1500 to $3000+ price range expects customers to take delivery on defective products? With maybe a 5% to 10% discount to compensate? Waste time shuttling the product for repairs and/or wrap for shipment back to them?
The only way to fix this problem is to refuse delivery of broken boats or demand significant discounts. Only by absorbing signficant returns or by losing margin to discounts will manufacturers be forced to finally address the problem.
Look at a fishing rod.
These boats need a more flexible ‘gel cote’, like the finish used for composite fishing rods.
what LeeG said to a 'T’
perfectly put. composite boats are born imperfect or very quickly get that way. i too want perfection in my new boat, but haven’t seen it yet.
i will say this: the glass Tempests we’ve had in our shop are sturdier built, stiffer and firmer for the weight than any other i’ve seen. we have one stronger layup from another company available, with a price and weight penalty, but generally i would say the Tempests are more solid than most, including British boats, like my current Valley kayak.
Put a grease pen to most any hull…
and rub it in with a cloth and you are bound to find some sort of ‘spider cracks’. I had a costomer who bought a LOT of both canoes and kayaks of me who was a final inspector for Crown Line Boats. He would give every boat he bought off me the grease test, and almost every boat had these cracks. And he found 'em on a lot of boats hanging in my shop, something tells me this is not a whole lot of an issue. I’ve got some old personal boats that have seen some hard use and those cracks don’t seem to have changed at all over those years of use. Now what really pisses me is when ya get those resin air pockets under the gel of composites that eventually rupture and leave a void/chip in the gel.
so…
seems the consensus is that spider cracks happen and this is a fact of composite life…
I would agree. I believe our boats are pretty darn sturdy. if they need a touch of repair due to S/H issues, so be it. IMO it’s better’n waiting in the supply/demand line till a new one can be built.
Gerry @ AC will do ya right, or they’ll likely hook you up with a discount.
remember it’s only a boat.
steve
“It’s only a boat”…
I read this whole thread and was waiting for the “It’s only a boat” comment (grin).
I subscribe to this theory, “It’s only a boat”, but I can tell you Debi doesn’t. She still babies her T165.
The well deserved scratches on my T180 just add character to an already incredible boat (g).
wade