If you did it that way you would basically have to pull out the entire length of painter to be able to get to the upstream end of the canoe. Then you would either be at the end of how ever many feet of painter you had, or you would be trailing the whole length of painter in the water if you had a hold of the boat by or near the grab loop.
If I swim with a boat I want to be at the upstream end of it and I do not want any more unsecured painter in the water with me than I absolutely have to have. If you capsize in a canoe it is not generally difficult to get to the upstream end where the end of the painter is secured to the grab loop.
By the way, I participated in a fair number of whitewater canoe clinics at NOC and did private instruction with some of the instructors back in the 1990s and never saw any NOC instructor rig the painters that way or recommend doing so.
Jimmy Holcomb is the longest standing whitewater instructor at NOC going back to its very first years. I did some private instruction with him a few years ago. He is one who now has only very short lengths of painter, maybe 18" long attached to his grab loops that dangle freely just above the water surface.
OK. I misunderstood what you said. I thought that you were describing a method in which the painter was first brought over the bag cage lacing all the way to the pedestal before being tucked under the lacing, which would be a poor method, IMO.
I prefer having the painter coiled and stowed under taut shock cords on the deck but in boats that lack a deck of sufficient size I do loop them under the bag cage lacing. But I prefer them to be better secured than shown in that photo. I loop the painter longitudinally up and down under all, or mostly all of the bag cage lacing. In the above photo there are several feet of unsecured painter that forms a large, free loop. Although it might be possible to pull the painter free from closer to the center of the boat I would not count on being able to find the free end easily if the boat is upside down or on its side with the open side facing away from you. It is always easy to find the painter if it is attached to the grab loop of the canoe so I really donāt see any great benefit to loosely stowing a painter in that way.
Painters looped under bag cage lacing are often much less secure than you might think. When cold water hits the bags they loose volume very quickly. If the boat is inverted, the bag gets pushed up against the hull bottom and is no longer snug against the bag cage lacing. With the painter stowed as above it is quite likely that it would come free if the boat goes through a large wave train or gets tumbled in a hydraulic or hole. And if I am with the boat in a situation like that the last thing I want is a length of free-floating painter to potentially get fouled in.
The bow one I use goes to the middle of the seat (nitro), so with that length, I can make a bend in it and tuck that between the front bag and the thwart, which leaves about a foot dangling in front of me in the seat area. So my guess is itās about 10ā long.
I need to shorten up the bow/stern loops as IMO they are way too big. The only reasoning I can think of for such large loops is for rescuing a swimmer. I can shorten them up and they could still serve that function.
Yes, chatting w/others is a good way to get exposed to different POVs and IMO thatās a good thing as no one is born with knowledge.
Iām gonna steal your idea of putting a float in it. Iāll just have to look for a foam float and how to attach it w/o any portrusions.
The idea of tape/webbing is intriguing as you can get a lot more strength from a tape than a rope so you can use a smaller one.
Another method of āstowingā painters which I never used but seemed to be fairly popular in some circles was to make a chain sinnet (ādaisy chainā) so that the end of the chain hangs just above water level but can easily be pulled out to full length. I see this method used much less frequently than I did 20 or 30 years ago, but then you see whitewater canoes much less frequently than you did 20-30 years ago.
I never liked this method because to deploy the painter you basically have to pull the end and then the entire length comes free. I much prefer a method that allows one to pull out only a relatively short length of painter leaving the rest secured.
True. We all must make trade-offs in most everything. I can reduce the potential of the line becoming jammed between rocks on a bend by making it short. So I have to weigh the probability of me taking a swim v. the rope getting jammedā¦and I see me being dumped as a far higher probability.
Iām not too concerned on where Iāll be in relation to the boat as if Iām dumped, Iāll be in the middle of the boat. If I have the line in my hand, I can work on orienting myself when Iām able to. If Iām getting pulled into a bad spot, Iāll let go and deal with it again when I can. This is where that float at the end idea could be handy.
That is what I said although I should have said ātowardsā instead of ātoā the center. The sequence of pictures below shows that the stern painter is first run on top of the lacing and then below it.
I am not promoting or practicing this approach and donāt quite buy the explanation I was given by the Houston instructors where I took a course either. Itās just something Iāve seen done.
Yes, the whole issue of whether or not to attach painters to a whitewater canoe, how long they should be if you do, and how they should be stowed is a controversial issue and what is appropriate for one person or one set of conditions might not be for all.
For reasons I have already mentioned, I have found painters to be extremely useful, not only for convenience but as a self rescue tool and I would not paddle a whitewater canoe without them. But I recognize the very real potential for entanglement or entrapment and if I have painters I want them very securely stowed so that they will not come loose even if the boat gets chundered in a big hole or a long rapid.
When I did my bow and stern loops I had always read you want them fairly tight so a swimmer can get a few fingers in them but not their whole hand. Reason being if they were to flip they would be trapped. I messed around trying to tie the knot inside and found to do that the lines need to be really long to start with so you can work the knot up and then making the loop tight enough really got tough. For the heck of it I tied the knot on the outside and liked it better as I could get it tight and also the knot gave something to grip and not feel like you were hanging on by two fingers. I will post a picture.
When I had my painters attached there I realize I had a loop on them also and it was large enough someone could get a hand in and moving them to the handles I did last night cleaned that up. I donāt white water so the urgency of locating my painters quickly is not an issue for me they are more there for lining the boat or pulling it up banks and keeping hold of it when docking or tying it up.
On our little river I have been noticing my canoe and rec kayak are the only two boats I have seen with painters and when I use them someone always comments that they should do something like that.
I made two more free loops I loop thru the grab loops when the boat is out of the water. They are about a foot long and I use then for bow and stern tie down points and also to slip our hands thru to carry the canoe. It is much easier than lifting by the handle or carry thwarts. When not in use I just loop them around the handle and stick them in the nose. I have another maybe 3 foot long to go on a thwart and act as a stirrup for reentry. It works ok if another canoe is weighting my far side. I just made a stirrup with a hook and a couple steps I havenāt tested yet for doing an assisted rescue where the other person really isnāt able to weight the side. It looks like it will work but I havenāt tried it.
If you feel your grab loops are too large and you make them tighter here is what I was talking about above. I donāt leave these on in the water but put them on out of the water to tie my transport lines to, or carry the canoe. I have even stuck a pole thru the extended loop and then two of us pushed it up a bank. I move my canoe on a kayak dolly and rolling it around is much easier holding this loop than trying to use the handle.
Iām not sure how to interpret this paragraph as a reply to my post.
My point was to show that the method to store painters that I described was indeed used by NOC instructors in an instructional video, after you appeared to doubt that.
As I already said, I thought from your description that you were talking about bringing the painter free over the entire bag cage and then stuffing it under the cordage from the inboard side leaving an end dangling free and that is a method I have not seen employed by anyone, including NOC instructors. Doing so would not allow the painter to be pulled free from the end of the boat without getting fouled in the bag cage cordage. If you are swimming in a rapid with a canoe, the upstream end of the boat is where you usually want to be.
What is shown in the video is similar to what I have done in canoes lacking a deck plate large enough to stow a coiled painter on. But what I donāt like about it is that the painter is rather loosely stowed under only a few loops of the bag cord lacing leaving a long, free length of unsecured painter between the stem and the first loop of bag cage lacing it goes under. If the capsized boat goes through a rapid it is likely that free loop will be pulled on by a rock or just the current itself releasing the entire painter. Have I seen people secure painters that way? Sure. But I prefer my painters to be very well secured unless and until I need them.
My point is the method shown might work fine for some people in some conditions. Paddlers often seem to dismiss the potential for entanglement in a line until they have had it happen to themselves or happen to someone else.
