Good Rescue Knife???

What club tested knives?
NHAMC Paddlers, according to an account from a former officer.

So…
The gist is to not carry a cutting tool? I would hardly think that’s is the recommendation, especially if folks are also carrying throw ropes.



Anyway “practical” way you would cut with your rescue hook, I can do the same with my knife, except my knife would have more utility in other situations.



sing

Matt— check out scuba knives

– Last Updated: Jan-02-06 11:07 AM EST –

I agree with everyone that bespeaks ti divers knife. I just bought a bunt tip scuba knife in titanium on a recent trip... it is by Blue Tang, and without the sharp point is safer (but sharp also available). If you type in "scuba titanium knife" on eBay you will see many in the $60 range. They strap click into the plastic sheath and are made not to come out even if you roll or dump; you have to click them out with your thumb or else they stay in sheath completely. They can be strapped on to your calf (which is how I wore mine, just in case Mr. Tiger shark decided to bite the side of my rental kayak--he did not, likely knew better as I was wearing this knife) or to the shock cords. The titanium is not quite as sharp as stainless steel (although mine still would cut a finger off if impropery used) but is 45% lighter than steel and is completely corrosion resistent. Just a thoughht, fixed blade; check out scuba knives and sheaths.

It rusts badly in salt water and…

– Last Updated: Jan-04-06 5:19 PM EST –

...I had mine come out of it's sheath. Speaking of which, the sheath is not very durable and can crack if you squash it when scrambling up on your deck.

It’s not just the tip that’s dangerous…
…it’s the exposed edges when the knife comes out of it’s sheath and flops around on its tether.

I beg to differ
With a knife, the rope (or whatever you’re trying to cut) can skate along the blade or move away from the edge. With a hook, the rope is captive and is pulled into the edge. It’s pretty easy to envision a situation where a swipe with a knife would be ineffective, but hooking and pulling would work. Given that and the dangers that knives present when they come loose from their sheaths (and they WILL come loose at some point), I feel that a rescue hook is a better and safer way to go, at least for sea kayaking.



Keep in mind too that you probably possess far more skill with edge weapons than most people here. What works for you may not work for them in an emergency situation.

Brian,
I like the looks of the Benchmade. What is the difference between the Model 5 and the Model 6 H2o?

It Is The Sheath…

– Last Updated: Jan-02-06 5:27 PM EST –

that is of concerned. I have a nice knife that is still sitting at the bottom of Walden after practicing an assisted rescue with Peter once. I was concerned with the retention mechanism on that sheath and it proved valid.

I don't believe in nor tether a knife to me. I would rather lose it.

Having said that I've seen sheaths with much better designs for retaining the knife that one --my Ti knife sheath has such a design. You can't pulled this knife out accidentally. If you ever paddle with Dan (? Lacey), ask to see his Ti knife and sheath. In fact I had to adjust the sheath and rig it so that I can actually pull in out with one hand. (I think a two handed retraction move is also bad.)

Also, with kydex, there are ways to construct a more customised sheath which a knife can not be easily pulled out with moving a retention piece near the opening.

In terms of cutting ability, the rescue hook actually requires the line to be much more under tension by the effect of "pulling" the line against the small cutting surface. A sharp knife can go through a line under less tension by a pulling swipe/cut. I can easily slice through a 3/8" line lying flat (but not pulled tight) on a table by pulling/pushing the blade down across with my PFD knife.

sing



hook…
I don’t really have much to add here. But, after reading all the posts I decided to get the rescue hook bnystrom uses. I’ve been carrying a tow rope now for a few years and have thought it to be a bad idea that I didn’t have any way to cut the tow rope if I should end up getting it wrapped around me somehow. In theory anyway it seems like the hook would be the easiest to use in a combat situation.



David

154CM/ATS-34

– Last Updated: Jan-02-06 9:19 PM EST –

It's not surprising that Benchmade would laud the properties of 154CM (or ATS-34, which is essentially the same thing from a different company) or any other steel they use, it's marketing after all. The fact is, 154CM is a very common SS in wide use. IMHO, it's one step up from 440C.

Of the SS listed on that page, S30V is by far the most superior. Created with particle metalurgy process that creates a much finer grain and homogenous distribution of elements. Thats means a better wearing, tougher blade. Specifically the ability to homogenously distribute vanadium carbides in S30V that results in a blade that holds an edge much better that a traditional melted and rolled SS. Also, the tighter grain means less propensity to fail at grain boundaries.

S30V is the only SS I would buy a new SS knife in. Generally I prefer a diferentially heat treateed tool steel blade, A2 or O1 being my favorites. With a good surface treatment and proper maitainence, corrosion is a non-issue.

As for finger holes, I have participated in some pretty serious FoF knife training. I have seen broken fingers resulting from the use of finger holes. But I have never seen a greater tendency for someone not using a finger hole to drop their knife, even with exceedingly hard contact. IMHO, dropping the knife is a non issue. I train to hold onto my knife when it's drawn.

sea scissors…
sharp as hell, blunt tip. inexpensive.



sheath got duct taped to my shoulder and keeps thing the off my chest and outta my way if i have to climb up into the boat.



the only time i have EVER needed a blade on the water, scissors woulda been superior…as it was, i managed to hack away at the fishing line entangling the cormorant…he squawked and swam away happy to be rid of the giant ball of monfilament.

hooks vs. knives
A knife is much more versatile than a hook. A hook is for cutting small line, belts/straps, or fabric. That’s it. With a rescue hook, you have no ability to cut something that won’t fit in the (small) mouth of the hook. And the only way you can cut is with a pulling motion, you can’t saw across an item.





On the other hand, if you want to carry a rescue hook as a primary because that’s what you think you’re most likely to need, but still carry a knife in a secondary position, I think that’s more sensible. IMHO, a knife is a very basic tool, and not one that is replaced by a rescue hook.

Knives are great, of course, but…
… ths issue here is not whether to carry one (or more) in your gear – that seems pretty obvious – but whether to carry one – a fairly large, sharp one – on the outside of your pfd, ready for quick access on the water.



–David.

My opinion
If I need a knife to free myself I really don’t want to drop it. Damaging a finger at that point is the last thing I will be worrying about. Considering you have the handle in your hand, torqueing the blade around would be very hard to do. the hole gives you substantial control on a small blade. Even with a pretty numb hand(say very cold water) you could still handle the blade.

Different scenarios different tools
I doubt your course did a lot of work with polartec 200 liners under dry gloves. I am not planning on deploying a rescue knife in a situration shere someone is likely to be knicking it our of my hand. I do want maxumum control with minium attention to the knife hand, so that I hafe it to spare for the rescue, or perhaps for keepint upright.



some good points. I bet you cant touch that supersteel for what 90% of sea kayakers spend for a knife.



and Yes Dave (and others) have it right: get sea snips. Cover them in Boeshield t9.(remembering the proviso that I do not do whit water rescue and cutting a boat up to free a paddler is beyond my contingency planning)

Practice It. Don’t Hypothesize

– Last Updated: Jan-04-06 5:12 AM EST –

that can you access your hook one handed and cut with it. IF you paddle in the winter, practice this with your winter gloves on. Don't find out when you actually need to use it. If you paddle rough water and you tether your hook, where is it tethered? How long? Where does the hook hang relative to you if you find your self upside down and need to roll?

My primary contingencies with the knife is that I may be trapped under with the seat belt in the surf kayak, or be entangled by my the paddle leash on my waveski. I need to be able to access and cut underwater. I need to be aware of the wave action and hold the knife safely when I feel the next wave or wash pushing me around. I know I am good for 3-5 roll attempts depending how much air I got before going over. That's anywhere from 30 seconds to 60 seconds plus. I know wouldn't be "trapped" unless somehow I have lost my paddle and can't roll back up...

The point is to try to understand what your most likely contingencies are and to practice somewhat near those conditions. Mental and physical preparation minimize panic. Panic kills.

sing

I’m talking about carrying both on PFD
I’m not saying just to carry a knife stashed somewhere in the camp gear. I’m saying carrying a hook left front and a knife somewhere else still readily accessible in an emergency is more sensible than ditching the knife.



My point, in essence, is that ditching the knife altogether in favor of a neutered tool because your perceive it as safer is folly.

Never Shall The Twain Meet…
you think their way is “folly.” They think our way is “folly.” To each the judgement is based on one’s own experience (perhaps the experience of “respected” others), preparation and contingency planning.



sing


A few points
"I doubt your course did a lot of work with polartec 200 liners under dry gloves. I am not planning on deploying a rescue knife in a situation where someone is likely to be knocking it our of my hand."



First off, I’d be interested to know whether you can actually fit your finger through that hole with a layer of polartec 200 and shell fabric on.



As for control, I have trained with gloves, and my experience is that anything that relies on finger holes for reference is MUCH harder to utilize than a trad grip with gloves on. You’re not going to orient a blade with a finger hole quicker than you’re going to orient a trad ovalized or rectangular grip, especially with gloves.



In addition, FoF (force on force) training is not about training to specifics. It is about adding stress and chaos to training, in order to emulate conditions “emergency” by definition. Which is to say, any time you need to draw a knife in defense of your life, it is a serious, serious emergency. It may not be a 6’2" 220lb super ninja trying to kick the knife out of your hand in real life, it may be mother nature. (Hell hath no fury like a women scorned, especially when she’s metaphorical.)



So the point is that my training hasn’t just been about fighting other people with knives. It’s been about testing, learning, and refining survival instincts.



My observation in intensive training has been this:



When a bloke breaks his finger with a fingerholed knife, he tends to immediately withdraw his hand. A few times I have seen them shake the knife off their hand. It takes a serious, SERIOUS level of dedication to mindset and training to keep at it when your body senses trauma like that. Unrefined instinct often tells a person to ditch a source of trauma asap. Like shaking a hornet out of your clothes. You don’t think about it, you just do it, even though it may cause more stings than had you calmly removed it.



The point being that the finger hole may very well be a lot less useful than you assume it to be. If you don’t train with it or ever exercise it, you may in fact be more likely to F up the situation with a finger hole than without it.



With a finger hole, you reduce your initial grip on the blade, because you are breaking up the primary muscular response that pulls your fingers together when gripped tightly. So you have a reduced initial grip, with the presupposition that the finger hole provides an advantage that offsets that. But you won’t ever know if the supposed advantage of a finger hole offsets the reduced grip until you experience it. I have admittedly not, but I have seen numerous folks in stressful situations realize quickly that a finger hole that results in a crippled hand is not worth it.



If you don’t believe me, do this: Hit a 2x4 as hard as you feel comfortable with your Lagriffe. Then hit it as hard as you can with a traditionally handled knife, even with a longer blade (which applies a lot more leverage to the grip). My bet is that you hit it a lot harder and deeper with the trad knife.



I would also leave you with the idea that the blade has evolved over thousands of years. And if you look at examples of hard use blades from across the cultural divide, you almost never encounter a finger hole. Throughout the ages, if someone in combat, be it a warrior or a fisherman on the high seas, dropped his blade, he was in trouble. And even though they were perfectly capable of adding those finger holes, they didn’t. They didn’t have marketing firms selling them things they didn’t need.



As far as the S30V, you can actually find it in knives starting around the 40-50 mark, maybe even cheaper, I haven’t looked. I know the stock is several times more expensive than ATS-34/154CM, but I have definitely seen lots and lots of sub $100 dollar knives made from it. You have to be careful of any manufacturer though, the best steel makes a crap blade without a good heat treat.

The “Fallacy” Of The Kerambit

– Last Updated: Jan-04-06 6:41 AM EST –

read Lynn Thompson's critique on why he dislikes the Kerambit. When Perin developed his LaGriff, he was really taking off a bit on the Kerambit design. I agree with full power hitting against a heavy bag with a blunted knife to feel where the pressure points are.

What I find with a finger hole is the almost unconscious desire to pull on the hole as if pulling a trigger. This is not an effective way to maximize the edge. A tradition grip, or reverse grip, will foster a sense of engaging pressure onto the knife edge while pushing/pulling with the edge. Much more effective engagement of the edge. My PFD knife, despite a petite size, actually has good indexing and a squarish handle that tells me what the edge orientation is even through my gloves.

sing