Realistic?
“What is the real likelihood of becoming entangled in anything that’s too big to fit into a rescue hook? Seriously, think about it. It’s probably about as likely as a lightning strike.”
You’re confusing the issue. I never said you’d get entangled in something larger than fits in the mouth of your line cutter. I said you couldn’t cut anything that won’t fit in the mouth of a line cutter, which is of course true.
If you want to get realistic, tell me, have you even tried cutting your own tow rope with your rescue hook (not your actual tow rope, the same type of rope)? Probably just a polypro line, but still, it may require more effort than you think. Have you ever tried to cut anchor, mooring or docking lines with a line cutter (if they even fit in the through of your line cutter)? How about the bow/stern lines on an average sized powerboat, can you cut that, will it fit in your line cutter? Have you ever tried to cut HMDPE, aramid, or vectran lines used in fishing and sailing with your line cutter? Can you cut a slack line with one hand with a rescue hook? Can you saw through a tightly wound gob of monofilament? Can you cut open a stuck knot?
“Have you EVER needed to cut yourself out of an entanglement? Me neither.”
Not while sea kayaking, but I have cut out plenty of entanglements, and always found it useful to saw at clusters.
“While being prepared to do so is prudent, it’s pointless to worry about every ridiculously small theoretical risk.”
I think you have this backwards. I’m the one advocating carrying the more versatile, powerful tool, you’re the one advocating carrying the “safer” tool because of a theoretical risk.
“My experience has led me to the conclusion that a sea kayaker is far more likely to be injured by their own knife than to encounter an entanglement situation where ONLY a knife will work.”
Again, you’re saying “entanglement situation” in place of the term “emergency.” And again, not every emergency is a small line entanglement. And not every emergency is our own, as boaters on the water we may find ourselves in the position to help others on the water in trouble.
The fact is that emergencies come from far left field, and you never know what they are going to throw at you. Which is why I carry a knife: because it is a very basic, very versatile tool. If I come across something I didn’t expect, say a capsized sailor tangled in his rigging, I don’t want to have to sit there twiddling my thumbs because I brought a line cutter that his line won’t fit in. Or a stuck idiot powerboater who can’t pull his anchor out (I actually had to do that once). Etc. You never know what you’re going to be faced with, so a more versatile tool makes sense.
I have never done worse than cut my finger with my knife. And to me, that is not enough reason to carry a less capable tool because it is “safer.” I think the reduced capabilities of a line cutter carried in lieu of a knife make it more dangerous than the hazards presented by the knife itself.
Always a proponent of Ti
but gosh, I learned a lot about knives here!! Wow…
Matt did you get your answer yet?
As a diver, the real reason my knife has a blunt tip, is so I don’t poke a hole in my BCD. The BCD is an inflatable PFD, and you see the problem with poking a hole in an inflatable PFD. Hence the number of dive knives with a blunt tips. The dive knives attach to the BCD, and you have to know where it is, since the diving mask blocks your view of your own BCD. So it has to unclip by feel.
I would never dive with out a knife. Although I have never been entangled by fishing line etc, it happens. But thats diving.
Any well built dive knive with a plain edge, serrated edge, and small hook should serve you purposses. Plenty of them out there.
Don
Name Names?
Can you name names for decent S30V knives?
There are a fair number of folders in S30V, of which the lower priced seem to be the Spydercos and Benchmades, as well as the Rittergrip (which I have). I don’t see nearly as many fixed blade knives in S30V, other than the Buck versions sold via Cabelas.
My choice
http://www.cs.pdx.edu/~walpole/pics/kayak/aoc/15.html
http://www.1sks.com/store/kershaw-1006-amphibian.html
OK, here’s my two cents. I have and like the Kershaw Amphibian. The two links above are 1) a link to the knife, so you can find the details and 2) a photo of me with the knife front and center.
I’ve owned this knife for about 10 years and it’s still a great knife. You might not think that says much but keep in mind that I use it for SCUBA diving and I have aprox 300 dives on it. I use it for paddling and I paddle on average once a week for several years (less in the last year).
My point being, the knife gets abused and it just keeps on working.
Wade
I Carry A Titinium Folder, Too
I haven’t had a problem opening it.
I have a hook and it is harder to use than the folder.
I have a collection of dive knives, but I never use them since I quit diving.
The sissors seem like a good idea. I might get some of those. BTW: I use sissors to clean fish. Works better than a knife
Buck Tiburon + EMT shears (long)
I use a Buck Tiburon on my left PFD strap as primary, with EMT shears as secondary, for sea kayaking. The knife has worked very well on everything from monofilament fishing line to anchor lines. Used a Gerber River Shorty till I got the Tiburon, which I much prefer, several years ago.
The Tiburon (not to be confused with the Oceanic Tiburon dive knife): fixed blade skeleton design, blunt tip, 8-1/2" overall with a 3-3/4" straight/serrated combo blade, usefully large line cutter on the back of the blade, hole in the blade to fit a hex screwdriver bit and a stepped slot that acts as a multi-size wrench or shackle key. It’s a reliable, robust,versatile tool that was designed by noted long distance kayaker Ed Gillet.
The steel is 17-7PH, which has proved an excellent compromise for corrosion resistance to prolonged salt water exposure with good edge characteristics. Not as hard as most “dry land” knife steels, but harder than the Gerber River Shorty and more than hard enough for this application, with very low maintenance requirements.
The sheath works right or left handed and has a positive action. I’ve been upside down in the surf, had people tug at the knife grip while it’s on my PFD, etc. without the blade coming out, yet it’s an easy one-hand draw when needed.
I secure the sheath to my PFD strap with the clip and a 2" nylon and velcro strap. The knife is tethered to the sheath with light cord. I recognize the pros and cons of tethering, but on balance prefer to have the knife tethered. I also occasionally use the knife aloft, where a tether is necessary.
I use folding knives for other purposes, but never for a PFD safety knife. Friends sometimes demonstrate how easily they can open their folding knives with one hand, but my opinion is that for a knife you can retrieve and use one handed in an emergency, a fixed blade is the only reasonable option.
On the knife v. rescue hook debate, I vote for the knife. It’s a stronger, more versatile tool. It can be used for both slicing and push cuts and, with no finger hole, avoids the danger of breaking a finger.
I once assisted in the rescue of a sloop that grounded offshore of a rocky beach. My kayak was much shallower draft than the powerboat that was trying to assist, so I could get in close. A fixed blade knife came in very handy, a rescue hook would have been useless.
Buck has discontinued the Tiburon, but they are still available on the Web. Just Google “tiburon knife buck” to find dealers.
The EMT shears are also good for dealing with fishing lines and are designed with blunt tips to be safely used to rescue accident victims. They’re stainless, tough, cheap, and much more versatile than a rescue hook. They make a good backup to the knife.
My Decision…
Thanks to all for the info. Lots of good advice.
I thought about it quite a bit and see all sides of the argument.
Although I can see some advantages of hooks and shears vs. knives, I chose to get a Benchmade rescue knife.
It will be for whitewater and seakayaking. I will NOT keep it teathered—would rather loose it than have it swinging around in turbulent water.
I think that a knife will be quicker, easier, and more effective in the event that you ever have to use it (probably never will). Also think that not having finger holes is an advantage as well—not only less risk of getting finger injured, but quicker and easier to grab while disoriented.
I also think that the knife may occasionally be useful as a tool.
I liked the Benchmade b/c the sheath seems very secure (more so than the Gerber). It has a point, but not a very sharp one. The point could be useful, but since this one is downturned it is not to threatening to the user.
Furthermore, this knife seems like it could double for use for other than just paddling where I could not say that for some of the others.
Just wanted to let you know what I decided based on the information you all have provided.
thanks
Matt
Feed Back
that “spey” point (a blend of drop and sheepsfoot points) is a good choice for those wary of accidental puncturing/pointing.
When you get knife, describe the sheath retention mechanism. I see a finger/thumb tab on the top of the sheath opening. Does that tab push up/down or to the side to remove it from obstructing the sheath opening?
My thought for a retainer tab is to to have it push sideways. This way you grab the knife handle, thumb against the tab to disengage from blocking sheath opening and then pull the knife down and out (upside down carry). I am not sure how an up/down would work.
sing
Good to know …
about the sheath, I wonder if most sheaths would do that. I had decided to keep my knife out of the salt (or at least only have it there for touring, rinse and protect afterwards, and not surf sessions), anyhow, as much as I’d like it for Great Whites 
…
For $25, I can live with these drawbacks. I’ll invest in a better one when I can.
Clearing a skeg
One of the reasons I switched to the larger Benchmade Model 6 H2O is that I can use the back of the hook to clear jammed skegs. It works well and it won’t damage the cutting edge.
YOU are the one confusing the issue
I have tested the rescue hook on rope, deckline, bungee and webbing. It goes through them like they’re not even there and that’s with the factory edge. If I hadn’t seen it myself, I wouldn’t have believed how easily it cuts. It’s a testament to the quality of Benchmade products.
Anchor, mooring, docking lines, powerboat bow/stern lines? Could you possibly come up with anything more unlikely? Why would I possibly need to cut any of those in a hurry while kayaking? If you’re going to be ridiculous, why not just ask if you can cut through a friggin’ anchor chain with your knife?
There is nothing magic about Kevlar, Vectran, Spectra, Dyneema and similar fibers. While they’re strong, they cut easily. Although I haven’t actually used the hook on them, I’ve used all of them in non-paddling applications and understand their properties quite well. I’ve got all of them at home, so if it really matters to you, I’ll test them, but AGAIN, what is the likelihood of needing to cut these in a paddling emergency?
Let’s also keep in mind that the only reason to have a cutting tool on one’s PFD is for emergency use. If it’s not an emergency situation, one would have time to retrieve whatever tool is necessary from a pocket or day hatch to deal with it, so having a knife in one’s gear is adequate.
I never suggested that one should not carry a knife, Leatherman tool or whatever to deal with such situations. I keep both a Swiss Army knife and a Gerber multitool in my gear, so if I need to deal with an unusual situation on or off the water, or simply spread peanut butter, I can.
What I said was that carrying a sheath knife on one’s PFD is risky. That’s NOT theoretical, either, as I’ve had three different knives come out of their sheaths during rescue practice and I’ve watched them dangling dangerously at the end of their tethers. I’ve had one end up underneath me and another land in my lap. That’s the reality of carrying a sheath knife on a PFD that I’ve learned through experience. In view of the low possibility of ever specifically needing a knife in an on-water emergency, I’m not willing to subject myself to a known and demonstrated risk by carrying one on my PFD.
Do whatever you want, but don’t kid yourself.
Have you ever…
…tried them in an even semi-realistic scenario? As I suggested before, try it upside down, with gloves on in rough water and you’ll have a better idea of what really works when it absolutely has to.
Kidding myself?
“I have tested the rescue hook on rope, deckline, bungee and webbing. It goes through them like they’re not even there and that’s with the factory edge. If I hadn’t seen it myself, I wouldn’t have believed how easily it cuts. It’s a testament to the quality of Benchmade products.”
Deckline, bungee, and webbing are lightweights, any sharp knife will slide through with ease. I don’t know what kind of rope you tested it on, by my knives are shaving sharp, and I frequently encounter cordage that requires several passes of the blade. Pull cutting on even some smaller diameter ropes requires an exorbitant amount of force, depending on the material and construction. If you like I can snap a picture of some three strand rope with 50-60lbs hanging off it over the edge of a shaving sharp knife.
“Anchor, mooring, docking lines, powerboat bow/stern lines? Could you possibly come up with anything more unlikely? Why would I possibly need to cut any of those in a hurry while kayaking? If you’re going to be ridiculous, why not just ask if you can cut through a friggin’ anchor chain with your knife?”
Well, as I said, I have had to cut an anchor rope while kayaking. And as I seem to recall, another poster also noted having to assist in the rescue of a vessel while kayaking, who noted a hook would have been useless. So I would hardly call it a ridiculous or remote possibility. As aforementioned, as a boater on the water, we’re not alone, and may encounter vessels of an entirely different nature than our own that need help.
"There is nothing magic about Kevlar, Vectran, Spectra, Dyneema and similar fibers. While they’re strong, they cut easily. Although I haven’t actually used the hook on them, I’ve used all of them in non-paddling applications and understand their properties quite well. I’ve got all of them at home, so if it really matters to you, I’ll test them, but AGAIN,
Cut easily? Compared to what? You know, they make cut resistant gloves from Kevlar and Dyneema.
“what is the likelihood of needing to cut these in a paddling emergency?”
As aforementioned, as a paddler you need to think about boaters other than paddlers.
“Let’s also keep in mind that the only reason to have a cutting tool on ones PFD is for emergency use.”
Agreed.
“If it’s not an emergency situation, one would have time to retrieve whatever tool is necessary from a pocket or day hatch to deal with it, so having a knife in ones gear is adequate.”
Well, that’s what this conversation is about. Whether or not a knife should be accessible in an emergency.
“What I said was that carrying a sheath knife on ones PFD is risky. That’s NOT theoretical, either, as I’ve had three different knives come out of their sheaths during rescue practice”
That sounds more like an argument for getting a good sheath rather than ditching your knife. As aforementioned, I’ve spent a lot of time in very rough training with knives, and I’ve never, ever had one accidentally come out of its sheath.
“and I’ve watched them dangling dangerously at the end of their tethers.”
And that sounds like an argument against the use of tethers.
“In view of the low possibility of ever specifically needing a knife in an on-water emergency I’m not willing to subject myself to a known and demonstrated risk by carrying one on my PFD.”
I guess that’s the crux of the debate. If the risk of cutting yourself scares you enough, and you’re ready to accept the much more limited usefulness of a line cutter, go ahead and ditch the knife. Just keep in mind you’re severely limiting your usefulness to those you encounter in an emergency situation. As for me, I want myself to be as adequately prepared for the widest variety of emergencies as possible, which does not include packing neutered tools.
“Do whatever you want, but don’t kid yourself.”
I’m not kidding anybody.
Emerson knives
I didn’t wade through all the responses so somebody may have mentioned them already. If so, sorry for the redundancy.
Expensive, but these are GOOD knives.
http://www.emersonknives.com
Donna
Oops
I just read that you already made your decision. Never mind. (But Emerson’s still an awesome knife.)
“Tether Danger” –
rare but not theoretical... if the idea of the hook is to defeat the potential danger of a tethered knife (I don't use tether for a knife), then I should note that you may have potential danger in your tethered hook.
I used to have a short tether with a small biner to attach my camera to for taking surf pics in the break zone. The tether is attached to a shoulder strap and the biner is normally stuck into the PFD pocket with a flap closing. Paddling out through the break zone. I was halfway out, tucking and spearing my way through the breaking waves. On one tuck and spear, I felt resistance when the wave passed and I tried to straighten up. I looked and saw that biner have somehow hooked the loop of my skirt (despite the snap closure) and I was literally popping my skirt off as I was straightening up. Fortunately, I had a short wrist leash to the paddle that I was able to drop the paddle and focused on getting the biner off the loop and popping the skirt back on before the next wave hit. I now use a short tether and snap for the camera.
So, here is highly improbable but potential danger for you tethered hook fans. Likely you won't be sparing through waves. Still, check and see what your tethered hook can grab if it came out out of the sheath while you're paddling.
sing
PS. If you carry a PFD knife to be "sexy", don't use a tether on the knife. The ww chicks will think you're dork because you can't hang onto your "tool." And the rodeo jocks will know that you're a "wannabe." Keep a pfd knife untethered. Just walk around at the launch but don't paddle, otherwise the gig may be up anyway if you lack serious paddling skills. Just advice from an experienced "sexy" wannabe.
Jumping in, Sing
I use the same knife. (Good choice, Matt) The tab pushes out away from the back of the blade. It’s quick to pop out with your thumb or you can yank on the grip, say in a rush situation, and it will also release without using your thumb. The sheath holds the knife pretty well without even using the tab. I’ve installed mine on the PFD in a manner that I can tuck the grip and first 1/2" or so of the sheath down in the pocket for extra security. (The pocket material on the Mildwater stretches a bit thus enabling this.) No worries about knocking it loose and having it disappear while stowing, transporting, or otherwise handling equipment off of the water.
Taj
good diatribe on knives/hooks/scissors
i chose the hook, already have the knife…plan on moving the knife to a PFD pocket and keeping the hook on the outside…i like the hook because i know it WILL be used—opening beer bottles if nothing else