with gortex for me. I hunt ducks, which means sweating in waders and a heavy coat. Then getting rain or sleet coming down on the good days. Goretex and underarmor help to wick the sweat away and keep me much warmer , even on the colder,windy days we are out. I have beenmuch drier and happier since using a goretex coat.
Gore Tex is great
I own a coated nylon raincoat and a Gore Tex one. When I wear the coated nylon jacket and exert myself at all, I get so damp, I may as well not wear a raincoat. The Gore-Tex, on the other hand works great. I stay dry and there is very little dampness inside.
The biggest “toll clue” for me…
was the statement of running big class 4 in a 14 foot SOT. Not many folks I know would brag about that.
Does Pahsimeroi look like a Troll?
(Those who lurk or post on the B&B already know the answer.)
Thanks to you and kayakmedic
The one thing I would differ (only slightly) with is that one type of waterproof boot breathes fairly well, and that’s without Gore-tex inserts: Sorel Caribous, IF they are worn with the very thick porous liners. I think the very thickness of the liners allows sweat to evaporate UPWARD and out of the boot. And I still remove the liners daily after each use, to let them dry out.
I won’t even bother to reply to Pahsimsori’s ridiculous assertions about Gore-tex.
Heard the same story,…
…but with somewhat different details. Yes, the guy was stranded without his dogs for a couple of days during a very severe storm, and he stayed warm and comfortable curled up in the snow with his arms pulled inside his traditional coat. I think it was Columbia that sponsored him for the next year’s race, and they outfitted him with their best gear. He suffered severe distress, which would have been life-threatening had he been out on his own, and he had to drop out of the race.
"I miss my lung, Bob"
still looks like a troll ta me.
There are situations where Goretex is highly over-rated and can even be a severe inconvenience, and a sensible discussion of those conditions is fine (though I got really flamed for that one time). Personally, I really like the stuff for certain conditions. Anyway, I sure wouldn't base my choice of clothing for my part of the country on the senseless rantings of someone who lives in, of all places, Arizona! (now THERE's a real proving ground testing rain gear if there ever was one)
Paragraph #1 of your post…
was educational - thank you. An issue I was not aware of but will be in the future.
I really believe many of the problems commonly associated with GoreTex are a direct result of a lack of maintenance on the part of the user.
Washing and refurbishing the coating are a priority with any breathable fabric.
Thanks for the post.
Yeah, and I fell…
right into his net! :o
One more for the ‘ignore’ list.
yes that looks like a troll to me…
Anyone who runs (and swims) class IV rapids while downplaying the importance of a roll to other paddlers due to his own lack of ability is a troll. Also stating as fact that waterproof breathable fabrics are useless based on one pair of hiking boots with no firsthand use of breathable paddling gear is also pretty “trollish.”
You got me Pahs, I bought it...The Troll caught me again. Hopefully some of my comments were useful though. I ought to know better.
Serious Gore Tex Question?
Sorry for hijacking this thread for a serious question, but…
I understand that the Gore-Tex brand name was given a exclusive patten for a limited time, and that time has run out a few years ago.
I was told any manufacturer can now use the process, and that other brand names like Sympatex are about the same thing.
Gore-Tex is still known for higher quality than some other off brands, but the basic process is the same.
Any one know if this is really true?
Pay If You Want
Pay the money if you want. I have spent 30 years working and playing in the woods. Worn many types of rain gear. Found Gore-Tex to be a waste. If you spend $3oo on a rain coat it’s only human nature to convince yourself you haven’t wasted your money. I hope you all enjoy your gear. I would especially love to see you wear Gore-Tex rain coats and pants while standing near a campfire. With my cheaper stuff I can do that.
Your head sweats faster than Gore-Tex can wick the moisture away. A ball cap under a hood will wick sweat away from you better than Gore-Tex will. That is a fact. A bandana with a hood will work better.
If you are sweating in your coat then wear less clothing underneath. Or you can spend lots of money bragging about wearing Gore-Tex. With my raincoat I’ll only close a few snaps. That allows plenty of moisture to escape. In a driving rain I take shelter since it then becomes unsafe to continue.
I have probably spent many more hours out in the rain and snow than well over 90% of the people on this forum. That is why I have so much experience with outdoor gear. Where I come from the outdoor life is a way of life for many people. If Gore-Tex was so great loggers, outfitters, guides, ranchhands, trail maintenance workers, commercial fishermen, etc would all be spending money on the stuff. Truth is their not for the most part. I have spent thousands of dollars on gear. Have worn out several tents and stoves. Hiking boots last me only one year. I buy good stuff. If people would rather believe some low payed store employee rather than an experieced outdoors man that’s their problem.
For those people who buy Gore-Tex goose down sleeping bags think about this. In cold weather your sweat can condense on the down before it has a chance to wick away. Went snow camping with a buddy who carried one and he had more problems with his bag than I did with mine. That’s because my synthetic bag would air out faster during the day while hanging in the sun. After spending twelve nights out his bag was starting to feel clammy.
Gore-Tex is for Outside reading yuppies. An inexpensive rain coat and dressing wisely is far more sensible.
I don’t roll in whitewater because I’m paddling a 14’ touring SOT. Only an idiot would roll if they don’t have to. Head and shoulder injuries aren’t my cup of tea. Very common with WW kayaker.
not necessarily the quality…
Goretex merely is a 2 ply (3 ply for the good stuff) waterproof breathable material. Now there are dozens of W/B materials out there to choose from and the performance for many of these is equal to that of Goretex. However what Goretex has that the others don’t is their lifetime guarantee. I don’t own very many Goretex items (lots of breathable/waterproof stuff) but the price difference is for the guarantee rather than the quality.
Constant innovation from gore
putting oleophobic layers on the outside of the membrane, changing constituency, is the only way too stay ahead in that game. Sympatex is similar (a ptfe membrane) but for my money goretex leads the way in durability and, in the ptfe market, leads the way in innovation. They repaired a 12 year old pair of pants for me no charge after the tape came loose.
I agree with Pahs in this, I never pay msrp for goretex. You can always get a model which the rich no longer desire for a great discount! Like $150 for a marmot thunderlight or $425 for a front entry drysuit. When you find the bargain that you want, buy it.
Two types of w/b…
(1) Laminates: Gore Tex and some others are simply a Teflon-like material that is
extruded into sheets and glued to the inside of a face fabric. This would be your 2-ply Gore in jackets (first ply is the facing, the second is the Gore then some type of mesh or synthetic taffeta material is sewn on the inside to protect the gore. A 3-ply has a second facing laminated to the gore to fully protect it. XCR has small dots to help protect the gore instead of fabric.) Gore has micro porous properties which is what allows the breathability. Remember that waterproof/breathable means that it is a waterproof fabric that has SOME breathability, it is more breathable than rubber which has no breathability. It is not more breathable than a non-laminated fabric. In a lab without its face fabric, Gore beats any copy on the market. Remember though that Gore only can breath as well as its facing allows it to.
(2) Coatings: Many companies offer w/b items that are a face fabric sprayed with a micro
porous coating. Columbia’s Omni-tech is an example. They typically don’t breathe as well as laminates, don’t last as long as laminates, but are much less expensive. They sometimes can be heartier than gore, but that is rare. A new coating which is very close to gore performance is micro porous polyurethane and inexpensive (i.e. Marmot’s Precip Jacket, or EMS’s Thunderhead jacket).
The patent on Gore ran out years ago you’re correct, but don’t believe that all w/b membranes are equal to Gore: Some are, many are not. In my experience, when you buy a Gore licensed item (that is right, all items with Gore on them are tested and approved by Gore not matter who the manufacturer is) you typically get the highest quality and most breathablity, but not always. And some inexpensive jackets can perform better than very expensive ones. You have to ask around. The one thing you do get with a Gore licensed item is their guarantee that it will be waterproof, or they will replace it. (It has some limitations). The secret to true breathablity in any jacket is multiple venting options (pit zips, core vents, venting pockets, two-way zippers with storm flaps, ect.)
The next generation of w/b is woven fabrics (similar to Tyvek for homes) these will breathe better, be lighter, stronger, and much less expensive. Look for tent rain fly’s to made out of these fabrics very soon.
I will give Pahs this: I have yet to find a w/b hat that is comfortable in any weather. They are just too hot.
Hope this answers your questions
Just so all of you know…
Yeah, Pahs is a troll. He would kill any one of you for a gallon of water.
Where Are They?
Posted by: Pahsimeroi on Sep-02-05 1:24 PM (EST)
“I bet that if rwven and I were dropped off in the middle of a desert with just a gallon of water each with tempertures over 100 the first thing we’d do is eye each other’s water supply. Trust me rwven I’d kill you without hesitation if it meant my survival. That is human nature. Which is never evil.”
accept my apology. Didn't know your were such an outdoor expert. I am humbled by your Grizzly Adams / J.Johnson outdoor knowledge. While I have watched camping and hunting shows on T.V. ,it is obvious you are the most knowledgable outtdoor guru of all time. (bowing, scraping,ect) I will burn all my outdoor gear and clothing while awaiting your advice on what to use. Say, since you are a winter camper, why don't ya come to MI this winter, say Jan. and show me how its done.
the nomination for BEST BRAGGING RIGHTS !