question
are you seriously expecting these hi tech garments to work for 20+years?
Well…
– Last Updated: Nov-11-09 1:22 PM EST –
Lee, In the beginning I didn't start out with any expectations. From my personal experience the Marmot garments I cited in my initial append above lasted nearly 30 years. The Yak Works jacket went nearly 25.
If I am to be honest, I guess had an expectation that Gore would do something 'positive' after my experience with Marmot Customer Service. I certainly had an expectation that Gore would make the details of their warranty or guarantee at bit more clear than they have.
There is a world of difference
between returning a drysuit because it delaminates after 2 years, and returning 30 year old clothing. I’m surprised you got anywhere with Marmot and not surprised that Gore stonewalled you.
Agreed, but it is ironic
– Last Updated: Nov-11-09 1:23 PM EST –
I am not complaining about the longevity of these goods.
Heck, 25-30 years is plenty of use out of any garment, Gore-tex or not!
If both Marmot and Gore had declined for the same reasons I don't think I would have given it a second thought.
Marmot indicated they were making the replacement based on Gore's "Lifetime" warranty. Marmot knew exactly when the items were made and what the MSRP was on each was back in 1979, so obviously they keep very good records.
Gore could not seem to substantiate their reasoning, which is why I pressed them.
For what it is worth:
the locals in Juneau, Ak call Gortex “cute”!
Their rain attire of choice is Helly Hansen regular rubber coated rain gear.
And another for what it is worth: Right now North Face is replacing my six year old gortex rain(splash) jacket, (six years old with about a million years of use on it).
The Gortex wore out in several places.
I was going to post a separate kudos to them, but figured I might just hop in here with it.
So kudos to these top notch people like North Face, but humbug to the people at Gore.
Cheers,
JackL
kind of depends
Let’s suppose a dry suit gets used 10-20 times in the winter. 30 years would be 300-600 uses.
A cycling commuter in Seatle might use his Gore-tex jacket 100 days out of a year. So a 3 year old cycling jacket might have the same usage as a 30 year old dry suit.
We’ve gotten so used to throw away stuff after a few years. Now we’re surprised some people don’t…
Interesting stuff
So far, I haven’t had to deal with Gore directly on anything other that cycling products and they were very responsive on those. I’ve had two Gore-Tex garments fail (delaminate), one from The North Face and one from Marmot and both were replaced, no questions asked. TNF simply sent me the new version of the garment, where Marmot credited me the original retail price toward any new garment (as they did for you). Either way is fine by me and I really like the new Marmot shell that arrived last week. I’m very impressed at how light Gore-Tex Pro Shell is and I’m hoping for some nasty weather to test it in soon.
I wish you stayed on top of this
I wish you keep on working on receiving this in writing and documenting this here. If the company is good then their actions will support that.
The proof is in the pudding.
Clothing makers vs. Gore?
Brian,
Perhaps there is a dis-join between Gore and the actual manufacturers of Gore-tex garments?
We have heard positive feedback here on p.net in regard to how Kokatat, Marmot and TNF stand behind their Gore-tex garments. It would be of interest to hear from someone else who has filed a ‘waterproof’ warranty claim directly with W.L. Gore Associates as to what their experience was.
not ironic
– Last Updated: Nov-11-09 4:29 PM EST –
It's not really ironic. It's cool. It should be on Gore's web site: 30 year old jacket-replaced...it's the best marketing PR you can buy.
So I don't think it is ironic because Gore charges premium for their fabric and says it's guarranteed for life.
It would be much easier then for everyone to just buy a non GoreTex fabric product, pay less and not expect to deal with customer service when the garment is to be replaced...
but Gore might not like that if they started losing market share. They want to continue to charge premium for their fabric. They want to keep their BOD happy with the margins they are making. ...
What do we get in return for paying more for their product?
The original idea of lifetime warranties (llbean, and others...) was to make a product durable enough that not too many customers file warranty claim. Those who did were in the margins of the business plan and their claims were immediately fulfilled. This in turn fueled customer satisfaction word of mouth which brought in more customers in return.
Today LLBean makes some crappy clothing but guess what. They will replace anything with their label and you don't even need a receipt.
Sorry -
– Last Updated: Nov-11-09 5:47 PM EST –
Maybe my words were a bit strong for a forum like this. I totally understand how you feel and that you wanted to share your experience. I've done the same as well, just to "get it off my chest". I still appreciate the info.
30+ years
from a jacket and you are dissatisfied, and giving people a hard time?
I asked about UV damage when I bought my Gore and was told that would be considered normal wear and tear. The lifetime guarantee is for any defects or delamination.
I asked about how long I should expect it to last and the sales reap said about 8 or 10 years and I thought that was reasonable.
BTW it’s a Kokatat and I love it!
why a lifetime warranty?
if it makes no sense?
You missed this:
“The lifetime guarantee is for any defects or delamination.”
I have a Columbia jacket that has a bad zipper and the place I bought it acted like I didn’t know how to zip up a jacket. I wish I had 5+ years out of it.
Although feel free to make your point without clinging onto my post.
8-10 years sounds good
but when I sent my 3 year old rogue dry top in for repair, kokatat told me it had been “abused” and wanted to charge me to return it. They wound up fixing the pin holes under arms and sending back at their expense, which was very cool. New holes appeared in 4 more uses or so and I retired the jacket. Awesome piece of gear I used 1-2 a week for 3 years. Still not sure how I abused it though.
Good experience with Kokatat Gore Tex
My buddy, Dave sent his drysuit to Kokatat to have his neckseal replaced. While they had the suit they inspected it and found some very minor delamination in the croth that Dave wasn’t aware of. They let him know what they had found and that they were replacing the suit, which they did. It was replaced because of the Gore Tex warranty. The fabric had failed. It hadn’t leaked, it had visibly failed.
Emboldened by Dave’s experience I sent my suit in for a neck gasket replacement rather than do it myself. While they had the suit they tested it and found a bunch of pinhole leaks that I wasn’t aware of. About 13 in total and these had nothing to do with GoreTex. I understood that I had worn the fabric out in some places and was happy to pay the extremely reasonable fee to have those holes patched.
Kokatat is good and will continue to get my business.
So will Gore Tex. I am an outdoor retailer (37 years) and I’ve used a lot of products made by a lot of companies out of a lot of different materials and my experience with Gore Tex, for WPB, has been the best overall and their warranty is just fine with me.
Jon
life expectancy is different
than lifetime warranty.
Unless expressly stated what the life of the garment is (or how is that established) the term “lifetime warranty” is misleading.
Lifetime is lifetime.
Thermarest lifetime means YOUR lifetime. You die, no more warranty. However if you inherit a Thermarest probably they will still warranty the product if it fails.
But there are a few companies out there with the “lifetime warranty” statement that won’t back it up when it comes to a claim.
Lifetime warranty on a bike frame: I broke it after 7 years and got a new one (even if technically life expectancy on an aluminum frame is 5 years)
Surely a Gore-Tex garment won’t last 30, 20 or even just 10 years. If used frequently you are lucky to get 5 year out of it.
When buying a product with lifetime warranty I buy insurance that it WILL be replaced when it fails, not IF it fails.
I would press my point: lifetime remains lifetime in my book
Retailer or Manufacturer?
You don’t like what Gore Tex said but you do like what Marmot did.
Separate the retailer from the fabric manufacturer. Who do you feel took care of you? Yak Works didn’t. Oh, that’s right. They were gone. Vote with your dollars. If Gore Tex pisses you off don’t buy products made with their fabric and only shop at Marmot or wherever. Don’t shop at any retailer that might go under.
Good luck with that.
Did you contact Columbia?
I’ll bet they’d repair it for you if the zipper is defective. I know that TNF will do so, as I’ve had a zipper replaced under warranty in a fleece jacket.
Yak Works, Marmot, and Gore
are all manufacturers, not retailers. Gore makes Gore-Tex fabrics, Yak Works (made) and Marmot (makes) garments. It is not realistic to expect that a manufacturer producing garments using quality materials and methods will possibly not be around at some point in the future.
The Gore-Tex written warranty is fuzzy. I agree with the OP that they should have it in writing stating what the warranty means, even if to say it is upon their determination of the garment condition. I own a number of Gore-Tex garments, and also sell Gore-Tex products retail. This issue comes up with customers regularly. Most good manufacturers will state in writing that the “lifetime” is the useful life of the garment.
Based on the OP, it sounds to me as though the Marmot sales rep perhaps mis-represented what the Gore-Tex warranty was . However, Marmot has a good reputation for standing behind anything they manufacture, and in typical fashion took care of it.
North Face also has a very thorough description of what “lifetime” constitutes (also the useful life of the garment) and the fact that they take care of issues that are clearly beyond the scope also deserves kudos.
Gore is a good manufacturer. They just need to clarify their warranty in writing.