Think less, carve more, paddle most.
You’re trying to figure out stuff you have to feel.
Maybe after a few thousand miles and a couple dozen paddles you can figure out some effects of things in you head - but until then… Carve, paddle, repeat.
Trouble is it’s hard to develop good technique and feel without a well shaped and sized paddle. Chicken and egg thing.
If you are really concerned about getting it right (no such thing), borrow some GPs, or buy one custom sized for you made by someone whose work is widely regarded as a good benchmark (like Don Beale). Hugely shortens the learning curve (pay now or pay later sort of thing).
Good news is - (besides thin not being rocket science, and fun no matter how you approach it) a whole lot of sizes and shapes can work pretty well - it’s nice to have variety/more than one - and as already noted, it’s pretty easy to shorten one that’s too long - but much harder to go the other way. Also interesting to revisit earlier paddles after a while, when feel/preferences have changed.
I’ll Say it Again
I have found the “to-your-curved-finger” paddle to be my slower-cadence, downwind paddle. When you make or order your faster-cadence, upwind paddle subtract about 5 inches from that length. You were going to carry a spare anyway, right? Make it a lower gear.
How tall are you?
Thanks.
Greyak’s
right on the money. Carve one and see how you like it. Starting with a custom paddle will put you miles ahead as it’ll give you a template. Short advice: Try same as your Euro = 86", 3.5" blades, 21" loom, and work from there. I’m just shy of 6 feet and use an 87" GP with 3" blades and a 20.5" loom–took 8 versions to get dialed in. I don’t agree with Rex about different up and downwind paddles–am happy with one in hands and one on deck, both same.
I’m 5’9"
Don’t get too hung up on the perfect paddle. You’ll likely own quite a few. I understand that not everyone agrees with my ‘gearing’ ideas but it just makes total sense to me; especially coming from my many years of road biking.
Agree with John
personally, I either like a standard paddle on the back deck or a storm paddle which is really great fun for using different muscle groups, doesn’t stick out as far behind the boat, and presents a much smaller face into the wind. Storm paddles usually run at around 6 ft long with either no loom or a very short loom. I prefer a shoulderless storm paddle. I also have a shorter paddle that I got from Don Beale that is in between my normal lengths and the storm that I find does demand a faster cadence but this is the interesting part: I don’t get any additional speed out of it and usually just tire out faster. Amazing what a heart rate monitor and a GPS will tell you. What something feels like and what it actually is in terms of efficiency and speed are sometimes quite different.
I think I read once that Greenlanders often switch to storm paddles and back during races to use different muscle groups and maintain or even increase speed with the storm sliding stroke. Not sure that you would get that type of efficiency from just a paddle that is shorter and in fact, you might expend more energy than you need to. But what do i know? As Greyak says, I just paddle by feel and don’t have the patience or the intelligence to try and dissect all this stuff.
Paul
Thanks
I don’t expect the first to be perfect, just want to avoid the mistakes I did with the Euro paddles - some have suggested 240cm length but I end-up with a 210-220 -;). And I am not sure I have the time to do 8 of them -;). A couple over the next month or two, may be, but not more…
As for different paddles, I do want different -
I have a wing and plan to keep it. What I want is a second non-wing paddle for what the wing can;t do well. It will either be something like Epic Active Tour or a GP. With etither the euro or the GP I could practice a bigger variety of strokes and rolls than I can with the wing.
The home-made GP costing me less than $50 (including some tools that I did not already have) compared to a $450 or so Epic is the first thing I want to try -
I think I’ll just carve one in the 86" or so length with 20" loom and go from there. The loom can be widened, the blades can be shortened or I can use my second pinewood plank to do a slightly different take before I settle on a more finalized version from the “proper” material…
I’m not a woman
but all (13 or 14 at last count) of my paddles taper to 1/2" (or less) at the end. You really have to lean on them to make them flex, both spruce and WRC. That said, my blades are quite eliptical in cross section with edges around 3/16" (at the tips) The cross section in the shoulder region, where I grip it, is nearly diamond shaped and my looms are eliptical in shape. I guess all this stuff is subjective.
Sounds like you might…
… also benefit from narrower blades on a a “reach up and curl fingers over” length paddle - maybe as much or more than taking 5" off the overall length of one.
Not saying yours don’t work great and just as you say (and what you say makes sense), or that the reach measure is anything more than a ballpark thing, I’m just adding that 2.5" off each blade reduces surface area a lot (out where it has most effect), that’s a big part part of the difference you feel, and there are other ways to get there too.
If you keep loom and width the same while changing blade length, you get big feel/performance AND power range differences. Same happens if you keep loom and length the same and only vary width.
Personally, I see it like this: We all have sweets spot as far as our aerobic pace/endurance goes - and the paddling speeds we like to maintain (and this varies through time for many, and their paddle choices should too). Let’s call it a paddler’s personal efficiency zone*.
Changing both length and width lets you keep to this efficiency zone AND get the feel/performance differences. Harder to tell what’s what sometimes though - as when you do this (even assuming you have your zone dialed in) as you can get two paddles with similar bite that both fit you and function well enough for you in a variety of conditions. The choice between them becomes more about distance efficiency (longer thinner) vs. textured control/security/easier bracing-rolling (shorter wider) all at similar balanced speed/effort match.
On average, I suspect most people have more blade are than they need for touring, regardless of distribution/blade shape. Having a GPS is very revealing here - as without it you’ll swear the smaller/easier paddle is slower, when in reality they rarely are. Without the GPS or a knotmeter, the extra effort you feel with a bigger blade gets mistaken for connection/power/speed, when a lot of that extra work is often just churning more water and not moving the kayak more efficiently (particularly with over-long euros).
Of course if you’re really hauling ass you can outrun a really small bladed paddle - and you may need more bite to grab enough water if it’s really flying by - but it’s not that common a thing for most people in a sea kayak except on limited downwind runs. In those situations most just let the weather do some of the work rather than really getting on it. Those who paddle that stuff frequently and paddle fast regularly are generally using wings anyway, and have probably gone to surf skis as well!
I’m sort of in between -and so I have moved paddles that fit this sort of active touring slightly better for me than GPs but are more fun and easier on me than a euro (with no speed loss and definite efficiency gains) and are less demanding/specific than a wing - like my Aleuts and hybrids (my Aleuts have smaller blade ares than any of my other paddles and yet I am nowhere near being able to outrun them - maybe with a narrower kayak and a lot more training…).
Yep. Each motor tends to have…
… a cadence that’s optimal/feels right over distance - and your paddle length and blade sizes should reflect that.
I’m all for a variety of paddles (damn near obsessive even), but the “gears” analogy thing doesn’t quite work out for me on the water - at least not the same way as on a bike. The differences in my paddles are more about what they do differently for me when hooked to the same motor - running mostly in it’s optimal/sustainable steady effort range (outside of occasional sprints and breaks) not ones that have me either spinning up or mashing to get there.
If the paddle’s not dialed in to match the motor, you’ll end up windmilling or slogging - and both waste energy that’s better put into the hull.
This isn’t stuff to dissect on screen (but beats politics), or even worth trying to figure out on short 3 knot paddles.
If paddling under 4 knot average paces and doing under 8-10 mile distances - pretty much any paddle (or kayak for that matter) is going to be good enough to get the job done. Folks can talk themselves into believing anything they want about their gear, but only speed and distance can really sort it’s performance (or your technique) out. If you only do shorter/slower paddles - this stuff hardly matters beyond being a nice academic exercise/diversion - and as long as you like your gear (current and future) and enjoy your time on the water it’s all good.
I like to experiment and vary things a lot as I paddle (between the really nice stretches of zoning out anyway). One favorite game is to change speed - while maintaining same cadence (another reason the bike gears thing doesn’t quite work for me as you simply can’t do this on a bike). Lots of useful tricks to be found here in terms of technique -particularly with GPs and Aleuts.
If I may - shameless plug for Greyak
you need to see and try one of Greyaks Aleutian paddles. I have one and the other one is with another friend Charlie in Florida who tried it out for the first time today and wow was he surprised at the speed, efficiency and as he put it, he forgot it was there as he was paddling, thats how comfortable and efficient it was. BTW, Charlie is in his 70’s and has been sailing and paddling more years than most of us have so his opinions mean something. (At least to me) He tried both sides as conditions changed and got sloppy and mirrored my sentiments about how in the messy sloppy stuff the ridged side aft did give exquisite control while the slightly concave side (almost flat) side gave speed and efficiency over distances. that term exquisite control is pretty accurate as in sloppy stuff or towing you can really feel what the paddle is going to do precisely and allows you all sorts of options if you are towing or swimming with the paddle or just slogging with 400 lbs of seal meat on your deck.
Personally, I think Greyak should really market this paddle aggressively as it really is that good. It takes nothing away from the greenland paddle but adds two or even three more dimensions to paddling as the roots and historical development of this paddle come from a different part of the world that had to deal with very different conditions.
then if you want to go really nuts try his woodwing!
GK did and I had to wrestle it from his hands.
Paul
86/20
86/20 sounds pretty safe. I’m your height and only prefer 88/21 because I have somewhat wide shoulders and so my arm span is almost 3" more than my height (and also what I adapted too with my first GP).
This stuff works both ways, - you change the paddles/the paddles change you - and that makes it all the harder to know what’s really going on, and all the less important that you ever really do! L).
Planning on 3.5"? Seems a good default/beginner) blade width and a safe bet for now. You can always narrow them too - which I prefer to shortening since I have know my cadence preferences - but either way has +/-. Wider than than 3.5 get too “euroish” for me, narrower teaches better GP technique IMO. Narrower probably being stuff for later…
Beyond the overall sizing - there’s all the little subtle shape/volume things. In trying many different paddles - it’s been these differences that seem to determine what’s a “good” paddle more than the sizing (I can try someone paddle that’s way small for me and still easily feel if its sweet or a clunker).
In other words - there can be a LOT of variability between different 86/20/3.5 GPs. Some great, some suck (and this all depends on individual preferences and what you use them for too - general purpose, more rolling, more speed/distance, etc.)
Like boat building - the good ones just seem “right” to hand and eye, with a lot of deceptively simple subtlety/refinement in the form (even if appearance/materials/finish aren’t particularly all that beautiful) and this usually bears out on the water. No rules or standards here. I’ve tried paddles shaped quite differently from mine that are great, and some shaped very similar to mine that are not.
Stuff interests me a lot, but still it all = a lot of time better spent paddling!
Well, that explains why…
... I haven't heard from Charlie - and don't have that paddle back yet! *L*
Look forward to seeing him again, and getting his impressions firsthand.
I too
would sugest something around 86 inches and loom somewhere between 19 1/2 to 20 and something in the 3 1/2 inch width
it will give you something to shave and refine.
Best wishes
Roy
Don’t get caught up on perfect untill after at least 5 or 6 paddles from now
Now Greyak
The gears on my bike were not set up just to match the motor. They're also there to deal with changing conditions; hills and winds.
Having two paddles with different surface areas helps the paddler keep the same cadence under different conditions... winds and currents. It's the same logic as the storm paddle but not taken to that extreme. The two different gears are there to AVOID windmilling and slogging.
You know what we call the guy who shows up on the Saturday ride with the single speed bike? We call him "dropped".
5ft2andabit = 86 in
with a 22in.loom - i now after a year, realize my loom is too long but dont know by how much - maybe 3 in or so - I need to order another and maybe shorten it up a little to 84? i wont know until i have one in my hand unfortunately and try it - how can one know until they paddle it? this can get costly as i dont make paddles. I would love a carbon but i dont know my real right fit yet. trial and error and unfortunately I dont see gps around here
Storm paddles have same size blades…
... as longer paddles (typically). Only the loom is shorter, and the sliding stroke addresses this.
Storms do not offer a different "gear", they just present less paddle to the wind and require a full time sliding stroke. The sliding stroke, done well, doesn't really even alter cadence.
"The gears on my bike were not set up just to match the motor." - Actually, they are - and are there to address human output limits - but being off the shelf items vs. custom you have to select among them accordingly to your needs - as well as using them for speed and grade changes - so you need more of them - to allow you to maintain similar output levels over a long ride.
So you have two paddles, with considerably different blade areas. I suppose that gives you two "gears", but I doubt that's really going to have you automatically dropping many of the one "gear" paddlers. If that does happen - it's:
1. The company you keep
2. Your conditioning/fitness
3. Your technique
These are likely ranked in order of highest to lowest probability. ;)
You're not the first to discover the benefits of carrying two (or more different paddles). I agree it can make sense to have different paddles for different things, but if you only change one variable - say same paddle with lopped off ends - it may work fine, but it's not the only way to achieve this variety, and may not be optimal.
My only real point here is that (despite all my spam emails and those late night "enhancement" commercials to the contrary) length is not the only variable worth exploring.
I have a dozen paddles from 72" to 90.5", looms from 6" to 34", and blade widths from 2.5" to 4" (not counting my wing). GPs, SPs, Aleuts, hybrids... That's a lot of "gears", but you won't hear me talking about all these "gears" allowing me to drop anyone.
Right now, my preferred upwind and downwind paddle is the same paddle (latest Aleut), but there are a lot of other conditions, and a lot of calm/light days, so I have quite a few other favorites too.
Some prefer a little longer loom
Particularly more “active” paddlers.
86" overall sounds long for someone 5’2", but having the loom that long reduces the blades - which could have them fairly decent for you.
For comparison, Kim is 5’2" and has a Beale that’s 83/17/3.125". Decided on those numbers after watching her with both smaller (her 80/15/2.625) and larger (up to my 88/21/3.5). She loves it her Beale. I think it may still be just a little long and she could use even smaller blades (81-82/3). I feel enough power in her Beale’s blades - and if I ever make myself another GP - I may make it with same size blades but 4" more loom. She doesn’t paddle much, but is in pretty good shape and naturally paddles at a good pace so the little extra blade and loom length seems to work well for her (maybe too well, as I can’t get far ahead for long). She also still has her smaller one for variety too.
So Many Words, Greyak.
but the bottom line is the paddler with two different cadences to choose from has an advantage over the paddler who does not; racing; touring; whatever.
At
5’2" and a bit…I would suspect (depending on Your actual body build) that something in the 80 to 82 inch length would be closer and with a loom around 17 to 18 inches long. (3 1/8 to 3 1/4 width)
Just a guess…paddle with your paddle and see how and where it hits the water at the catch point (without allowing the paddle to determine the catch point)…see if it hits the water at the correct spot in a relaxed manner or if you are tending to force it one way or another.
for loom length…you just paddle and see if your hands have a tendancy to want to wander farther out or closer together after some time and some distance.
otherwise just hook up with someone that has a dozen or so paddles of differant sizes and try them all
Best wishes
Roy