The OP hasn’t started a “debate” – he’s posted a much-needed real time data comparison of the efficacy of both styles of paddle and found them essentially equivalent, other than in the two factors that most have agreed about anyway: GP’s are generally less effortful for long distances and rolling and EP’s provide better initial power for acceleration and against headwinds. I think his findings put the lie to the attitude some seem to have that GP’s are a sort of frivolous affectation that is not a practical paddling “engine”.
@dc9mm said:
That applies only to my Superior brand GP as the other brands I tried in carbon were as heavy as the wood ones.
I’m glad you mentioned this because it matches my own experience when I paddled with a friend’s “carbon” paddle. I’ll be making an effort to try out some of the better/lighter ones, possibly at the BOFSKS coming up soon. The price tag though… ouch! One of the things I like best about my “heavy” homemade paddle is that I can beat it up, sand it, and throw some varnish on it and it’s just about good as new. If I broke it or lost it, it’s not a huge deal either.
@willowleaf said:
The OP hasn’t started a “debate” – he’s posted a much-needed real time data comparison of the efficacy of both styles of paddle and found them essentially equivalent, other than in the two factors that most have agreed about anyway: GP’s are generally less effortful for long distances and rolling and EP’s provide better initial power for acceleration and against headwinds. I think his findings put the lie to the attitude some seem to have that GP’s are a sort of frivolous affectation that is not a practical paddling “engine”.
Thank you for reiterating that my goal is not to start (or continue) a debate, despite the title of this thread. I was genuinely curious, as is my nature. My hypothesis was quite the opposite of what I discovered; that under the conditions of the test the speed was almost the same. As for the effort involved, I wish there were a better way to quantify this. But alas, I don’t think I’ll ever have access to the proper equipment to do such a “proper” study. Maybe there’s someone else that can take up that task.
@magooch said:
Sparky, you say you don’t feather your Euro-paddle. That clearly–to me anyway–means that you are disadvantaging yourself on the windward leg. That would be especially in a strong headwind and 20 knots is surely a “strong” headwind.
The question of whether to feather or not is another one that’s akin to the Ford/Chevy debate. Yes, there would be more wind resistance on the raised blade when it isn’t feathered. But for me the potential advantages of feathering a paddle are outweighed by the consistent symmetry for rolling and bracing offered by the non-feathered paddle.
I’d encourage folks here to set up a similar experiment and post their own results. The key is to set up a test so that there’s only one variable - the paddle. I’d be interested in the result set for feathered vs. unfeathered just as much as I am GP vs EP.
I have 2 carbon Novorca gp’s and 2 wood Lumpy gp’s, plus a 220 Kaliste, a 220 AT, and a 226 AT, and an Onno. Plus a gps. Never got meaningful results from many, many, speed trials.
There might be a bigger difference in efficiency due to varying loom length than in going from gp to Euro. Or due to varying overall length. Or, especially, going from a 100 yard speed trial to a 10 miler.
The 3-piece Superior carbon is an object of desire for me but I would have to sell one of the kayaks to afford it. I’m hoping to someday find a 3 piece wooden GP (a 4 piece would be even better) so I can pack it with my folders for airline travel.
I have been doing experiments on the different shapes of Greenland Paddles against each other for many years and have produced Variations with only one thing changed. This has been a personal quest. I am however not testing against Euro paddles because I long ago determined that the largest difference between a Greenland Paddle and a Euro Paddle is how it feels with it’s interaction with the water. {I also find more variables for dialing in the part of the stroke where the body can handle more rather that just start to finish with the same power use factor.}
The shoulder shape of the Greenland paddle can impart more control , cause more or less, hand hot spots on a long paddle , index the paddle for winter paddling where mittens are necessary etc. {height and slope and shape of shoulder} There also seems to be optimal lengths for looms for different blade widths and blade lengths. Direct correlations with edge sharpness and silent and clean powerful strokes. Tip shapes of small differences also seem to add efficiency to the paddle…some shapes are more fatiguing than others {for long distance}. Many paddles are not less powerful, but are more efficient so seem less powerful because they are less fatiguing. Many people have seemed to equate paddles that fatigue as more powerful…however…this in not a given. If the paddle comes into it’s power band during the part of the stroke where the big muscles are in play and at the point where the big muscles are at the most efficient, then the stroke tends to be less fatiguing but still powerful.
Best Wishes
Roy
What Euro paddle did you use for the test?
As @Sparky961 said earlier in the thread,
“The Euro paddle is a Nimbus Kiska with 215cm length. There might be smaller, but this more likely sits near the smaller end of the scale. I’ve never liked feathering a paddle, so there is none used in this test. Western red cedar GP was carved by yours truly with dimensions based on my own body and boat.”
Yes thanks I remember reading it now.
@Sparky961 said:
I’d encourage folks here to set up a similar experiment and post their own results. The key is to set up a test so that there’s only one variable - the paddle. I’d be interested in the result set for feathered vs. unfeathered just as much as I am GP vs EP.
Don’t see how there can be only one variable as water is never stagnant (nor is wind, even on a calm day). I think the biggest variable is technique, as there are differences between the two. Unless you’re a superb technician like Greg Stamer, who excels with both Greenland and Euro.
I use both a Euro (unfeathered) and a stick. No need for me to experiment as I know I’m faster with the Euro because my Greenland technique starts getting sloppy when I increase cadence. I need to go slower to go faster.
Needs a lake with no current on calm day possibility. Would not do me any good because I am not an expert in either.
@Sparky
Great job of trying to quantify things. But to ask a basic question, is your technique equally good between the two paddles? Are you using the GP a bit more like a Euro for ex and not going for a diving angle into the water? If the numbers were on the closer side and your technique is not equally well developed between the two types of paddles, technique alone could be the diff.
The variable I’m concerned about is the amount of surface area of the paddles. If the amount of surface area of the two different paddles isn’t the same what are you really measuring? Is it the shape of the euro blade that made you more tired or the bigger surface?
@magooch said:
I have to concur that a GP is also not the best tool for going downwind where considerable waves are generated. Most of the time you only get a couple of quick strokes to catch a ride on the bigger waves and to extend the ride after you outrun the wave, you have to grab as much water as possible where you can.
That’s interesting, as I find that there’s no difference.
I find the much faster cadence of the GP to be more tiring and less efficient use of energy on long distance paddles.
Again, I don’t find that my cadence is significantly different with a GP. It makes me wonder if your GP is perhaps too short and/or narrow. I also wonder about your paddling technique. Are you using your GP with a canted stroke? If not, that makes a huge difference, as the cant increases bite dramatically.
It has taken me years and thousands of miles of paddling to finally find what i think is my most efficient paddling style and I’m pretty sure the “experts” wouldn’t be all that impressed, but it works for me. I’m also quite sure that the boat makes a huge difference. Some boats obviously have a higher practical potential speed and can take full advantage of a more aggressive paddle (Euro)–whereas a boat with a lesser speed potential is able to be satisfied by a stick. But I try to keep an open mind and maybe there is a GP out there that is the exception.
GPs can be made as “aggressive” as you want; just make the blades longer and/or wider to get more bite. Trust me, a GP with 41/2" - 5" wide blades is very aggressive! If you go too wide, you lose the ability to comfortably hold the blade near the end, but that may or may not be an issue, since you can still grab the blade somewhere past the middle for extended strokes. With a wider blade, that should work fine.
I agree with Bryan’s post, and also the sentiments of roym above.
Going back to the OP, Sparky mentions that he conducted his tests using a GP that he made. I made a GP in a boat building class with Brian at Cape Falcon, to his specs, with him overseeing the group. It’s a pretty good paddle, overall.
The following summer, Brian was in NY to give a class and borrowed my boat for a week to paddle down the Hudson afterward. He had made his own paddle at the class, and gave it to me when he returned the boat. It’s the same paddle, really, but his is MUCH better than the one I made. It’s not that I’m not a hack, I was a professional carpenter for 15 years. But the performance of mine is not even close to Brian’s. The various fine details of a GP make a lot difference - tip shape, edge shape, blade profile, loom, etc. The fine details of the paddle dictate the hydrodynamics, which is where the power comes from, so are critical for a good paddle. There is also the issue mentioned by Bryan that a beginner is not likely to use a GP in a particularly effective way. I found the GP pretty intuitive, but would say my stroke was not truly dialed in for a year or more. In particular, the remarks that the GP cadence was very high makes me think it was definitely NOT being used effectively.
I guess my point is that a test using a GP made by someone who’s never used a GP is unlikely to give meaningful results. I’d like to see Sparky do the same test a year from now, after becoming comfortable with the GP.
So a year later Sparky would be better using GP making the GP faster than the euro?
Who knows, maybe he’ll get better with the Euro as well, and results will be about the same. Maybe he’ll loose the Nimbus paddle and have to compare to a different Euro, and it will all be different. This is all very subjective, in my subjective opinion.
I would agree that this was a very subjective “test”. Honestly, all of us paddle differently. Some lilly dip, others speed is primary and lots in between. In my case, speed and distance is what I enjoy. I’m not a good group paddler, hence most of my paddling is solo. I use wing paddles exclusively, for my surf ski, sea kayaks and even in my solo canoe. I like the lightness, power and speed it affords. I have 3 wing paddles, each one is different in length and blade size, each dependent on which boat I’m taking out.
@PaddleDog52 said:
So a year later Sparky would be better using GP making the GP faster than the euro?
I imagine it would depend on the development of good technique.
http://www.gregstamer.com/2012/01/27/forward-stroke-with-greenland-paddle