When paddling for distance at a moderate pace in calm weather on flat water my hands remain mostly dry with a euro paddle with drip rings. Nothing wrong with that I suppose, is there?
When there is strong wind, waves, currents, or I practice something that does get you wet, then yes, dry hands would be tough to have...
So, back to my question - specifically with a GP, where you will be wet most of the time, does that not bother you? When my hands are wet there is less sliding around the shaft and more stress on the skin, which is also softened by the water. I suppose over time one may get used to it, but to me this is something to consider...
Forward to the Past I once took a Forward Stroke clinic with a well-known, national-level competitive paddler. Out on the water, we encountered another paddler using a GP, and the instructor remarked, “I could give that guy some advice, but he probably wouldn’t be interested because he’s using that paddle for philosophical reasons. And you can’t argue with philosophy.”
Keith Wikle also reports on a little paddling demo at the recent WMCKA Sea Kayak Symposium 2008: "One of the more interesting points of the instruction for me was a paddle power demonstration. Shawna and Leon had us pair up with another paddler and link in tail to tail with another paddler on a contact tow. One paddler would use a euro paddle, the other would use a wing paddle or a euro paddle. The objective was to see who would tow who with the different paddle. I was paired off with Alec Boyd Peshkin who is my size and of equal power and skill. We started out with my carbon fiber greenland paddle and his werner shuna. Invariably the euro paddle would quickly overpower the Greenland paddle. We switched back and forth with the same results. We then used an epic wing and the Greenland paddle. It was dead even on these two paddles, I was surprised by this. We then switched to the wing and the euro. Again the euro paddle started dragging the paddler with the wing around.
“I’ve held a not very scientific or empirical bias that the Euro and the Greenland style paddle were pretty much the same under these conditions. But after this I am not convinced. Doug Van Doren and Steve Bailey experienced the same results. Though Steve Bailey is a very powerful paddler and much bigger than Doug. Food for thought!!”
I’ll refer back to my cycling analogy… using the euro is like being in the big chain-ring and the GP is the small. Euro & GP blades have virtually the same surface area. On the euro, most all of that surface area is at the end of the paddle, creating a large lever (just like the big chain-ring). Add to that the cupped shape biting the water, the euro is hard to beat for shear power. That’s what it’s designed for.
You’re going to get more distance/power with each crank using the euro vs. the GP. But you are going to fatigue much quicker. If you’re heading out for a +3 hr. open water jaunt, fatigue is certainly something you need be concerned about.
For just having one to try out, really would encourage you to try and make your own. Doesn’t have to be pretty. Just needs to be sized to fit you and your boat ergonomically. Read up, there’s lots out there on it.
Relative to wet hands, they’re going to get wet. Don’t apply a hard finish (i.e. epoxy or varnish) to the whole paddle. Just the tips, and that’s only if you want the protection. The surface texture of raw wood doesn’t allow as much water to run across its surface as say a euro paddle w/ it’s hard smooth surface. The wetness will raise the grain of the wood, providing a velvet feeling texture. The softness of the wood is less fatiguing on the hands. You won’t want/need gloves. Also need to decide if you want a shoulder or shoulder-less loom. I prefer shoulder-less, but it’s all a matter of taste.
I recently made a similar analogy on another topic. I said that once you learn the secrets to speed and efficiency it is like being in a jet when everyone else are in crop dusters. But, I definitely was not referring to a greenland paddle as the secret! Ha ha that notion is kinda funny. Greenland paddles are the ant-jet of the paddle choices.
Greenland paddles may be easier on the joints because they slip backwards through the water easier than other paddles but this effect also makes them less efficient. The harder you pull them the more water you are stirring into wasted vortices.
You won't achive your full efficiency unless you get a paddle that slips backwards less and makes your kayak slip forward more.
A few other related thoughts:
* The strain you feel through a paddle is not caused by the paddle - It's actually your kayak's drag that you feel. Rather than switching to a slipperier paddle, a more efficient (yet more expensive) solutions is to switch to a slipperier kayak.
* If paddling hurts your joints, then your technique could probably be improved (unless you are suffering fom an injury).
* If your arms ever get tired while paddling, then your technique could probably be improved.
* If you switch to a Greenland paddle because of strained joints or arms, then you may be treating the problem, but you may not be curing it.
* The keys to significantly higher levels of speed and efficiency are good technique combined with a paddle that creates more drag and a kayak that creates less.
* It is cheaper and easier to try a greenland paddle, than buying a more efficient kayak or learning good forward stroke technique. However, once you are headed down that slippery slope, you will never achieve levels of speed and efficiency that you are fully capable of.
* Some people who say they they don't care about speed and efficiency are lying to justify their investment in slower, less efficient equipment. If this statement pisses you off, then its probably you that I am talking about ;)
For me the GP is easier to maneuver in the water. This comes in especially handy when rolling. On a windy day the GP is less likely to feel like it's about to be snatched out of my hands. There's no up or down. No power face. And it's shape is a natural index in the hands. It's always at the right angle. Very easy to use extended.
Yes, the wet hands thing. When it's warm out it's not a problem. When it's cold out I wear neoprene mitts. Very comfortable.
To all the Do-It-Yourselvers I think you are putting ideas into my head!! Lets say my wood works skills are… ummm, bad! And yet I’m thinking maybe… Still if I could find a seller in Australia!!!
the ant-jet? You’re gettin’ real one note again J. Great when you stick to what you know (and you know a lot, but it AIN’T about GPs). There’s enough nonsense/BS/myths about GPs already. I understand it coming from most sources, but you seem more technical/science/logical minded…
Absolutely stunning, laminated (lamination cannot be underestimated for strength), and less expensive than many “famous maker” GPs. Discount for paddling perks members on Pnet, and even deeper discount if you buy three or more. And they ship. Wonderful people in New Hampshire–give Yvonne Mitchell a call and they’ll custom make one–any size, loom, wood type, et cetera–for you.
That’s a really dumb test… …as all it does is show you which paddle is better at churning water when you’re not moving. It also forces the paddler to exert as much effort as possible, which can result in “overpowering” the paddle blade, creating flutter and/or aeration that reduce the efficiency and power of the stroke. Additionally, it’s only valid for the specific paddles tested, as blade area and design will have a large effect. There’s no way to draw ANY conclusions about the effectiveness of paddle designs in general from such an ill-conceived “test”.
Lotsa dogma out there on both sides. You can paddle a kayak with a closet pole (I’ve done it, it works) if you like. And the bottom line is what YOU like.
The dogma comes in when you can’t stand seeing someone else doing something different than what you do, and then try to rationalize why you’re the only one that knows anything.
People simply wouldn’t use GP’s, EP’s, or wings if they didn’t work. I call BS on anyone that tries to argue against any of them in totality. They’re just different approaches to making a kayak move, and they all work.
And if you look at the range of ancient inuit paddles that are known to have existed before europeans ever had contact with the inuit, you’d see that there is nothing new under the sun (Even EP’s are co-opted inuit ideas to a large extent), other than maybe a few design aspects of wing paddles.
Use what you like, and don’t be concerned what anyone else thinks. And keep an open mind when you’re trying to find what it is you like.
Love my Greenland I use it almost exclusively for sea kayaking. It is light and in quartering winds, can easily be adjusted for a longer side/ short side to compensate. My elbow tendinitis is gone. I can still go fast and it braces well in higher waves. My only complaint is that it is very wet paddling in cold water without the drip rings on a Euro, and gets the gloves wet/ cold hands .
Hi Greyak I hear what you are saying and always respect your opinions. I do need to be kept in check sometimes. So I re-read my posting to see where I may have been misleading. I still think everything I said was fair.
I mostly want people to understand that it’s not a paddle that creates strain in one’s arms and joints. Its actually the drag of one’s kayak and/or poor paddling technique. My point was that if you switched to a Greenland paddle to resolve these issues, then you may be choosing an easy treatment, but maybe not curing the actual problem.
I actually enjoy seeing paddlers with Greenland paddles, especially those who have built their own traditional sea kayak and paddle. I respect those who try to replicate the traditional experience. I am even willing to overlook it when they are wearing modern synthetic clothing.
Well Said… “The dogma comes in when you can’t stand seeing someone else doing something different than what you do, and then try to rationalize why you’re the only one that knows anything.”
Well, you know I won’t… … argue against less drag or better technique!!!
Then there’s also matching the paddle to the paddler and drag load.
I wouldn’t suggest a GP as a crutch to get around physical issues, but then I don’t go the other way and recommend wings to most typical paddlers either…
Wings and GPs share some things. Neither is optimal with a wider kayak (technique!), in WW or with a lot of displacement/load like when towing (drag!) where the kayak is making little progress relative to the water and the paddle slips through on hard strokes instead of being a lever.
Both are better with narrower kayaks and most efficient once at speed where the paddles ability to operate in a combined lift/drag mode vs. all drag can shine (why Keith Wikle’s recent pull tests showed the drag optimized euro to be more “powerful” than GP or Wing at a dead stop - while we both know that’s not really optimal for cruising). There’s a good bit of overlap, but the GP’s blade distribution vs. the wing’s lets the wing be optimal at a bit higher speed range (for those with skill and power to utilize) - but harder on more average paddlers using them at lower speeds.
I’ve even got a paddle that’s in between traditionals and wing, and likes a speed range right in between.
I can understand why you don’t use GPs - I don’t either on something like a surf ski - but not why you think your very limited ideas about GPs use/performance are correct without any significant mileage. This is very different from your wing comments, no?
Please keep in mind that all of my “traditional” paddles were designed and built in the 21st century. Some have ancient origins (what doesn’t?) but they’re every bit as “modern” as any other paddle type. I use them because they work well for me, not because I want to play seal hunter (though I have good friends that might).
Most kayak designers understand the concepts behind designing to optimize for a desired speed range at a given displacement - and for specific uses. We see discussions skirting these issues regularly, but I don’t see too many looking at their paddles the same way.
Given a specific kayak, paddler, and what they want to do - the paddle choices should narrow down pretty quickly and type of paddle that’s best suited should not be too ambiguous - even with the large performance overlap between types for typical uses/users. This clarity won’t of course apply to the 3 knot flat water social paddler types, as anything works for doing that (and I’d bet that group probably generates the most of the “this paddle vs that” paddle discussions - but that’s OK, as they buy most of the gear too!).
Preferences and biases will alway cloud the issue - and perception is reality in recreational pursuits - but fortunately this did not drive the development of EP, GP, or Wing from my understanding of paddlesport history.
As to the other’s comments about absolutes -I totally agree. Personally, I like them all (EP, GP, Aleut, Wing, and others) - but in the interest of full disclosure I did recently sell my last euro. Just don’t need one right now. I’ll get another someday…
isn't proving the superiority under all conditions.
Brian"
I think the demonstration was to open up a discussion about what worked under those conditions and what didn't and to remove any emotional bias towards the equipment, to keep everyone curious and interested about paddling.
Also I think probably from my own experience and maybe even yours the surfing experience I relayed in my post might be a good real world example where off the line speed did count for something.
I am still not sure that a Euro is the answer to all problems or issues with paddling and in the end I may decide to continue using a Greenland Style Paddle for all my sea paddling. Just like you and several other paddlers have stated, once up to speed it may be far easier on my body.
I think the ultimate aim is to keep open, and stay curious. No one would dispute that the traditional paddle works, and works really well under a variety of conditions, but recognizing where it may fall short can be fun too.
