I was wondering if someone out there with experience in both of these boats could compare and contrast them. Also now am considering the Azul Sultan....(edited post)
I currently have an Aquanuat and am looking for something with a little looser hull---something with a little less primary stability that will will take less effort to put up on edge, but that will still have good secondary. I would also like a little more speed. I think that a hard chined boat like these two may provide some of thesse attributes.
I have not been able to paddle a Greenlander, and there are none around here for me to try, but I did get to paddle a Legend today. It provided a lot of what I was looking for, but overall I liked my Aquanaut better. I thought that the Legend's tracking was somewhat poor for its length and it windcocked much I thought. I also found it just a bit slower than the Aquanaut.
I would think the Greenlander might be similar, but with a bit better tracking and more speed and less windcocking, but can't say for sure since I have not paddled one yet.
thanks for your help
Matt
some thoughts…
The Greenlander Pro actually has plenty of primary stability and it should be similar if not more stable than your Aquanaut. On the other hand, the Legend lacks some primary stability due to it’s unique hull shape. As for secondary stability, I really can’t determine which kayaks have good secondary stability since that concept isn’t clear for me. Both boats can be edged hard although the Legend takes a bit more edge control and is less forgiving.
As for speed, you’re really reaching if you’re looking for a British/Greenland style kayak that exceeds the Aquanaut in speed. I would expect the Aquanaut to be favorably very close to the Legend and Greenlander pro in speed. If you want speed in that type of kayak, the Silhouette is faster than the Legend at the expense of even more stability.
I guess I’m not sure why you’re looking at either of those boats unless you are unhappy with the Aquanaut as they all are in the exact same class of boats. If you want a maneuverable playboat, get something like a Pintail, Anas Acuta, Romany, Avocet, or perhaps a Nordkapp LV. If you’re looking for more speed, either work on technique (perhaps with a wing paddle) or get a dedicated speed kayak (racing kayak, surf ski, etc) since the Aquanaut is a very fast sea kayak.
Speed and fun
Today on a paddle we intersected with a guy in a carbon Epic Endurance 18. Very neat boat and very fast. He also was using a wing paddle. While we were occaisionally playing with braces and sculling, he was into paddling forward. Our pod consisted of an Avocet, Vela, Romany, and Explorer. The Epic was clearly moving with less effort at high speeds.
I don’t think you get playful and fast in the same boat.
But if you want to know about speed over flat water here are the Sea Kayaker drag stats for some of the boats under discussion.
Drag @ 3 knots (most commonly stated cruising speed for sea kayaks): Epic Endurance 18 is 2.03, for the Legend is 2, Aquanaut is 2.02. Drag @ 4.5 knots: Epic Endurance 18 is 4.73, Legend is 4.9, Aquanaut is 5.04. Drag @ 6 knots: Epic Endurance 18 is 11.27, Legend is 12.5, Aquanaut is 13.3.
As a point of reference, your Avocet creates 15.5 pounds of drag at 6 knots
Explanation…
I agree that playful and fast are somewhat mutually exclusive; however, that’s not exactly what I am trying to find. Here is what I am seeking and why:
- MORE SPEED: I am now stuck with paddling flatwater most of the time and it’s kind of boring. I do mostly fast workout type paddles now. I want something that glides a bit better than the Aquanaut. I find this satisfying when paddling on flat water, and it helps you to cover more distance / see more things during your trip. I am not expecting much more speed…maybe another .5 mph. I can currently maintain about 5.5mph using my GPS with my Aquanaut when paddling at an exercise pace. For me, this is where the boat pretty much tops out. In order to go faster requires a sprinting effort. I would like to be able to do over 6 at an exercise pace.
-CARVING: I think this is different from “playful” I look at playful as something that spins around quickly with little effort and little edging or skill on the part of the paddler (Avocet, Romany, etc). With these boats the stern will somewhat slide out and skid through turns similar to a whitewater boat. I look at carving as the abilitity of a longer boat to track through turns with a larger turning radius when the paddler has sufficient skill to deeply edge the boat and apply a good bow rudder, etc. I don’t want manueverability that is a free meal ticket…I am willing to work for it with proper technique and edging.
LOOSE HULL / EDGING: I enjoy working on skills on carving turns on the water as I paddle just because. I want something with less initial stability and good secondary.
I like the Aquanaut b/c it has great secondary and can be balanced on edge while turning quite easily; however, doing so requires a good deal of physical effort on the part of the paddler to overcome the boat’s stability. Instead of a subtle shift in one’s weight to the “other cheek” it takes a good amount of lift of the knee/pressure on the foot peg. Over the course of a 2 hour or longer paddle you notice this. I find that at the end of a paddle my hips and legs are quite tight.
I like the low stabilty of the Legend b/c it allowed me to make these subtle weight shifts and balance the boat on edge easily. I want a definable edge on which to plop the boat in order to carve turns and apply bow rudders, etc.
I had thought that the Legend would fit the bill nicely, but just did not care for it. I liked the stability profile and felt quite comfortable in the boat, but just did not care for the handling and tracking. I found it hard to paddle fast b/c if your weight had to be absolutely centered. Any slight shift in weight caused the boat to veer a bit. I found it no faster than my Aquanaut, and perhaps even a bit slower (using my GPS) due to the issue above.
I have heard that the GP is a fast boat and about as fast as you will find in a maneuverable sea kayak I would think. A lot of people use them for racing as I understand. I doubt many people race with an Aquanaut.
Matt
Azul Sultan…
Also now am considering this boat. I have heard good things about it and that it is very fast. Seems to fit into a similar category as the above boats.
Not sure if I am big enough for it though at 5’8, 185. I have seen it described as a boat for the “bigger paddler”
Force 4?
Matt,
Can’t remember if you’ve tried the Impex boats or not, but maybe look at a Force 4 if you haven’t already done so.
~wetzool
more thoughts…
MORE SPEED: It’s too bad that you didn’t like the Legend since I think the Nigel Foster boats have some of the best sense of glide and overall speed that I’ve seen. I can hold around 6 mph in my Silhouette at an exercise pace but a good wing paddle really helps me keep my form consistent to keep up this rate. I definitely recommend a wing if that’s an option. As for Greenlander Pro, I honestly didn’t think it was very fast. It had comparable speed to the Aquanaut, Outer Island, Arctic Hawk, etc. It’s fast for an NDK boat but you won’t get a speed boost from it. If anything the NDK Greenlander is even faster than the Pro although it has an ocean cockpit. If you want 6mph cruising speed, get a Valley Rapier, an Epic Endurance, QCC 700, surfski, or some other boat designed with more speed in mind since I REALLY doubt you’ll find that extra .5 mph in the Greenlander Pro.
CARVING - For carving, the Foster boats do carve well and the Nordkapp LV and Force boats also carve extremely well. If you’re willing to work on proper technique (deep edge with a bow rudder), again I don’t know of many boats that will not carve a beautiful turn.
LOOSE HULL / EDGING - I can’t comment on stability since each person has a different comfort level. With that said, if it takes a “good deal of physical effort” to edge your Aquanaut, you need to add a whole lot more padding. A well outfitted boat should respond almost instantly to your body movements.
As for the Legend veering while paddling, it actually is a pretty strong tracking boat and it just takes a bit of seat time to learn to paddle the boat without over engaging the chines. Oh and lots of people race with the Aquanaut as well. Actually thinking about your requirements, a Betsie Bay Aral or Recluse may fit the bill for you as well. As for the Azul Sultan, I believe it’s a Legend clone so I’m not sure if you’d enjoy it if you didn’t like the Legend.
Aura
you should try the aura by riot, the aura is the
same design as the original one calleed
paradime by willams performance kayaks. The
aura is abit smaller beam then sultan by an inch.
aura beam 20.5 & I believe sultan is 21.5 beam.
If you want to compare to azul caylpso then
it should be the same design. I found this boat
fast & pretty maneverable if edged over far
enough.
What about…
POSTED by Celia:
a shift in priorities? As above, you are looking at a pretty similar cohort of boats, and if you hold onto speed and tracking it'll be very hard to find anotehr boat to move to from the Aquanaut. Have you considered thinking about, as someoen else said, a whole different personality entirely and just adding something like a Pintail or an Anas? And then go out to play as much as go fast.
Sultan - Paradigm
I was under the impression that the Aura is simply a rebranded Sultan. A friend has a Williams Paradigm and a Sultan. The Paradigm seems noticably lower in volume.
I think 185 pounds would really push the limits of the Paradigm’s intended load.
My sense is that the Paradigm is closer in volume to a Silhouette wheras the Sultan is close to a Legend in volume.
Though the length and width of the Legend and Sultan are identical (according to Sea Kayaker), the Sultan has a longer waterline.
I any case, I found the Sultan more tender than a Legend with the payback of feeling more responsive and slightly faster. (drag tests indicate they are very close) For me, the Sultan responded quickly to bracing and ruddering. It also paddled backwards better than any other boat I’ve been in 
Aura
When I was demoing Aura which is the same as
paradime it felt good with still quite a bit of
room to spare. I’am 5’9" 160lbs. A fairly
bigger guy should fit just wouldn’t need to
pad out as much.
Hmmmm
It is possible that I won’t find much better than what I already have. I’m not sure.
I know that I could get more speed from a truly fast boat like the QCC 700 or the Epic but I don’t want a ruddered boat.
I have an Avocet that turns very easily and is playful, but almost to easy to turn which to me takes some of the fun out of it. Doesn’t even really require any edging.
I guess I could try some more padding on the thigh braces, but not sure if that is the problem. It already fits me pretty tight, but you never know. There is no doubt that the Aquanaut requires more effort to edge than the Legend for instance which just requires a subtle shift in balance.
I still want to try the Greenlander and the Azul. If the Azul isn’t faster then I don’t think anything will be.
Matt
aquanaut
As much as I would like to buy your aquanaut
I think you got the best of both worlds with
avocet & aquanaut. Fun day boat & fast long
boat.
Why not
challenge yourself with a surf ski or rapier etc.
You are splitting hairs about speed with boats that may vary by .25 knots in reality. I just do not “get” this obsession with some of you guys. You wanna go fast, for goodness sake get a fast craft and haul ass! Yoy’ll have way more fun in flatter water doing so. Then get a playful coastal boat…you’ll keep up with your friends in other “sea touring” yaks just fine, but have a more pkayful boat. This speed focus within this category is just strange to me. Just my crazy thinking…but you’ll be in an Aquanaut and someboby in a ski will drop you like a brick…and you’ll want a ski… GET A SURF SKI!
Surf Ski
Good points. I have thought about a surf ski, but to me there are so many other aspects about kayaking that I love and that a surf ski just would not satisfy.....nor a ruddered boat I don't think.
I love the feeling of being connected to the boat, edging, sculling, rolling, etc. What I am really looking for a is a fast skegged boat....a true sea kayak.
You may be right though in that maybe I am splitting hairs. If I lived somewhere that there were some dealers or others with boat I could demo then I could very quickly answer this question for myself. I paddle with a GPS so the speed question could definitely be put to bed quickly, and after an hour in the boat I could tell whether or not I would like it. Unfortunately though I can't really demo them easily thus my use of the forums for info.
Matt
greenlander vs. aura/sultan
I’ve owned a greenlander (not the pro) for 5 years now and like the speed, tracking and carving ability. I don’t think you would gain hugely over the aquanaut but I’ve never paddled them back to back.
I did paddle an Aura this last summer and really didn’t like it that much, it somehow felt more unwieldy compared to the greenlander, and a bit bigger in the cockpit (but I prefer the greenalnder’s ocean cockpit). didn’t feel tender to me but just preferred the greenlander.
In the end I did as someone else here suggested and added a completely different boat - a pintail - and I’m not regretting my decision.
well…
You could always get a QCC 700 ordered with a skeg.
What about a BBK?
Betsie Bay Kayaks make some very nice greenland style boats which are quite fast, track well, edge and turn well, and are a dream to roll and play. They are designed so well they don’t even need skegs.
http://www.bbkayak.com/
I resemble that remark!
Love my skegged 700. Still, how much speed will this buy you over an Aquanaut depends more on the motor.
My average cruising speed is around 4.5 knots over 10-20 mile paddles. If I were I in shape and 40 lbs lighter the 700 would be capable of another knot sustained cruise.
I’m like you and like the contact, rolling, simplicity of skeg, good solid foot brace, etc. I’ve modified/outfitted my 700 to accommodate this. I also like speed/efficiency. I built a long (19’8.25") and narrow (18 7/8") swedeform SOF to get some of both.
My SOF is sweet. Moves very easy and is surprisingly maneuverable for it’s length. Still, at that L/W ratio its going to be at a disadvantage in some conditions. Something of similar dimensions/handling, hardshell, edges smoothed off, with a small understern rudder (wouldn’t need much) would be da bomb. Someday I’ll build that.
How much speed do you want? Maybe more than makes sense for skeg use? While I too prefer skeg for general paddling/touring - I think there is a limit to what sort of hull can work skegged. Fast requires greater length/width ratio. At some point I think that makes a skeg the wrong choice. Length obviously can decrease maneuverability, but so does narrower beam. Why? because when you edge a needle nothing changes. Rocker can only do so much - and too much robs speed. It’s also not just about turning, or even countering for wind/wave. Both skeg and rudder can do that, but a rudder lets you constantly vary the input to work each wave and milk the most out of it. Combine these factors (e.g. surf skis and race kayaks) and a rudder is the only choice).
The again the question is how much speed do you want? What will you do with it? For general touring - it matters little. Paddle what you like/fit. For fast touring it matters more.
As for playful - there’s all kinds of play. Lots of choices at either end of what you’re looking at.
Agree on the connected feel
Coming from sea kayaks and HP surf yaks, i too like the abilies to edge, roll etc., that you mention. For that reason I’m still looking at a boat like the Rapier for workouts. I like the QCC 700 and Epic 18 designs for fast touring yaks as well, but I think the rapier would be a better match for me… But Matt, I can tell you that in reality you are splitting hairs with most of these Brit designs. They were never considered fast kayaks, rather efficient rough water touring craft. Good luck and try a ski anyway. They are a blast, and believe me, you wont want to “edge”! Take care.