First post here. I have recently purchased an older Mad River Indy. I’ve been paddling it daily and I’m really liking it. While the hull is in great shape, there is a little gunwale rot at the tips of the bow and stern (see photos). I picked out the rot and, as you can see, the last screws are exposed on the inside, but still seem secure. Other than these small sections the the gunwales are solid, though. All the wood elsewhere is also nice. Is it worth worrying about these two sections at the bow and stern? I know of the ship lap joint to do a section replacement, but if I can get away with just leaving it I’ll take that route.
Well, I think it’s toast. Where would you like me to pick it up and dispose of it?
You could scarf joint short sections into the ends of the gunwales and make a new deck too. It’s a little work, but shouldn’t be difficult to make a good repair. Or you could just seal it all with GitRot and paddle the heck out of it.
If you do a complete repair, leave a gap between the inside of the stem and the deck for drainage when the boat is upside down. Mad River’s failure to do so is what contributed to that rot.
A real clean fix would be to make a new deckthat goes clear to the hull, with cutouts near the inboard end for the inwale to butt up into. Then do the scarf cuts on the outwales so they overlap the filler section enough to screw into the deck just ahead of the butt joint between inwale and deck.
Another way I’ve seen it done, is to remove the flush deck and replace with a deck overlapping the gunwales on top; leaving a slight gap between the deck and the stem of the hull for drainage. That gives a little more protection for the point of the stem.
Thanks for replies. I like the deck that goes clear to the hull idea, Steve. It’s definitely worth the work to restore, but I’ll hold off until the paddling season ends. Thanks again!
I just got one with the same issue but don’t really have the knowledge to do the woodwork. May try someday but also may try the System Three Sculpwood as that’s less intimidating. I don’t know if there is anywhere around me to have it done properly.
@DianeCetan said:
I just got one with the same issue but don’t really have the knowledge to do the woodwork. May try someday but also may try the System Three Sculpwood as that’s less intimidating. I don’t know if there is anywhere around me to have it done properly.
Unless you’re in the Sahara I bet there is. Auto body or carpenter.
You can certainly paddle the boat as is. Personally, I would repair it.
Steve’s idea of a deck replacement would certainly work, but scrapping your entire deck, which appears to be vintage and intact, and replacing it with an entirely new one seems to me to be a lot more work than is necessary. It is the ends of your inwales that are rotted, not the end of your inset deck plate. To repair the rot inside the hull, I would cut across the existing inwales transversely either where they join at the tip of the deck plate, or any place between there and the interior stem of the hull at a location that the wood is sound. That will leave a roughly triangular open area in front of the existing deck plate. Shape a template out of stiff cardboard or thin plywood and shape it to fill the space exactly. Use that as a template to cut out a small deck from any nice looking hardwood that you choose. Leave it slightly oversize and shape it to a precise fit using wood rasps and sandpaper. You are going to have to do this and much more if you choose to fit an entirely new deck plate. You can bond that new end piece to the cut ends of your inwales using a waterproof wood glue or G Flex epoxy (I prefer the latter). Drill a hole at the tip of this new piece so that water can drain from the inverted boat.
The rotted pieces of the outwales are rather easily repaired. Harmony Gear sells a four foot splicing segment of radiused ash gunwale for this type of thing:
One segment will probably suffice. You want the “kerfed” version. The kerf is the thin lip of the outwale that covers over the molded hull. These splicing segments will probably be a bit oversized compared to the existing gunwale but they are easily shaped to be smaller using rasps and sandpaper. For splicing in gunwale segments I and most others use scarf joints which are much easier to cut than shiplap joints and look better IMO. Many builders insist on using very long scarf joints of a 1 : 7 ratio or even greater. This may be necessary when bonding thin panels together to get an adequate bonding surface for adhesive, but for a 3/4" thick gunwale I have found that a 1 : 3 scarf works perfectly well and provides more than enough bonding surface. Again, use either a waterproof wood glue or better, G Flex epoxy. Make sure and seal well any interior surfaces of your new pieces of wood that you are not bonding to.
Here is a pdf file on gunwale repair from Mad River Canoe. Toward the end there is a section of repairing inwales and outwales with splicing segments:
Unless you’re in the Sahara I bet there is. Auto body or carpenter.
Hmm. I wouldn’t have thought of an auto body. Still may get brave someday. I want to paddle it some to check out my level of commitment. I may know someone but have to ask and not close by. Thanks!
@pblanc said:
You can certainly paddle the boat as is. Personally, I would repair it.
Steve’s idea of a deck replacement would certainly work, but scrapping your entire deck, which appears to be vintage and intact, and replacing it with an entirely new one seems to me to be a lot more work than is necessary. It is the ends of your inwales that are rotted, not the end of your inset deck plate. To repair the rot inside the hull, I would cut across the existing inwales transversely either where they join at the tip of the deck plate, or any place between there and the interior stem of the hull at a location that the wood is sound. That will leave a roughly triangular open area in front of the existing deck plate. Shape a template out of stiff cardboard or thin plywood and shape it to fill the space exactly. Use that as a template to cut out a small deck from any nice looking hardwood that you choose. Leave it slightly oversize and shape it to a precise fit using wood rasps and sandpaper. You are going to have to do this and much more if you choose to fit an entirely new deck plate. You can bond that new end piece to the cut ends of your inwales using a waterproof wood glue or G Flex epoxy (I prefer the latter). Drill a hole at the tip of this new piece so that water can drain from the inverted boat.
The rotted pieces of the outwales are rather easily repaired. Harmony Gear sells a four foot splicing segment of radiused ash gunwale for this type of thing:
One segment will probably suffice. You want the “kerfed” version. The kerf is the thin lip of the outwale that covers over the molded hull. These splicing segments will probably be a bit oversized compared to the existing gunwale but they are easily shaped to be smaller using rasps and sandpaper. For splicing in gunwale segments I and most others use scarf joints which are much easier to cut than shiplap joints and look better IMO. Many builders insist on using very long scarf joints of a 1 : 7 ratio or even greater. This may be necessary when bonding thin panels together to get an adequate bonding surface for adhesive, but for a 3/4" thick gunwale I have found that a 1 : 3 scarf works perfectly well and provides more than enough bonding surface. Again, use either a waterproof wood glue or better, G Flex epoxy. Make sure and seal well any interior surfaces of your new pieces of wood that you are not bonding to.
Here is a pdf file on gunwale repair from Mad River Canoe. Toward the end there is a section of repairing inwales and outwales with splicing segments:
My experience with Mad River wood gunnels goes way back. I have an Explorer from 1981 and have picked up several used ones to refurbish over the years. I find that there is usually more rot than you are seeing. The gunnels tend to rot from the inside out. This is because the face of the gunnel that is against the hull has not been treated adequately. Water gets between the gunnel and the hull and soaks in, stays saturated and eventually rots. The outside of the gunnel with look pretty good until it breaks.
I would suggest a very careful inspection of the rest of the wood on the boat where rot might not be so obvious as at the ends. If it was mine I would put all new wood on it. Maybe save the seat and thwarts if they are good. Sure is a pretty boat.
My last refurbish project was a kevlar Indy. I glued the gunnels to the hull with epoxy, no fasteners at all. That seals up the vulnerable side of the gunnel. I also coated the outside with epoxy and then varnished. They are tough and pretty. I love my Indy.
I would suggest a very careful inspection of the rest of the wood on the boat where rot might not be so obvious as at the ends. If it was mine I would put all new wood on it. Maybe save the seat and thwarts if they are good. Sure is a pretty boat.
I would recommend considering as well. One of our canoers lost a thwart this weekend due to wood rot…all of a sudden during take out. It all looked good before the thing broke.
Water will permeate any holes in ash. This includes gunwale screw holes, holes drilled in thwarts to attach yokes, thwarts and seat hangers, and any exposed open end grain. When a canoe is inverted after use with any water in it (and there is usually some) the water drains down and collects under the deck plates and inwales. It permeates into the gaps between inwales and thwarts and then into the screw holes. So yes, it is very common for the portions of thwarts that you commonly don’t see that lie beneath the inwales, and especially the bottom of those thwarts, to rot while the rest looks good. Water often permeates into thwarts from the open end grain exposed at the cut ends which are often poorly finished. Mad River finishes their wood trim with oil, which many makers do and oil finishes work well if periodically reapplied, but they do not remain durable for years on end. I do not epoxy gunwales to the hulls of my canoes, but when I take the guwales off, I do apply a “penetrating epoxy” to the faces that will contact the boat. You can’t apply oil over epoxy, but it does work well as a base over which to apply a marine varnish or polyurethane.
