LOL
Imagin how much he haggled over that $50,000 car
Try Kelly’s Canoe & Kayak
in PA. They offer a 10% discount off a boat if you buy $150 worth of accessories. You can test it in their testpool for stability and glide-better than no test. Good inventory and service.
http://www.kellyscanoeandkayak.com/
Do you go to WalMart and
"make them an offer"? How about the grocery store? When they say “your total on these groceries comes to $85”, do you say " tell ya what, I’ll give you $70". Or when you pull up to the gas pump do you go inside and tell the attendant, “instead of $2.75 per gallon I’ll give you $1.75”? Do you wheel and deal over the cost of a 6-pack? Don’t like the price of 2x4’s at Home Depot? Do you “haggle” with them for a better price? Most retail stores, especially in the small independant category, barely make it as it is, one reason being having to compete in a market dominated by the big box stores.
I wonder why people go into independant retailers and ask for discounts. I really don’t understand what the reasoning is. Go to one of the big box stores and ask for a discount, they’d laugh at you and wonder what type medication you were on.
Funny thing is, for some reason no one would DREAM of asking for a discount at one of the above mentioned places…go figure.
As you may have guessed, I’m a small independant retailer. (not paddlesports)
Because independents Do haggle?
I wonder why people go into independant retailers and ask for discounts. I really don’t understand what the reasoning is. Go to one of the big box stores and ask for a discount, they’d laugh at you and wonder what type medication you were on.
Funny thing is, for some reason no one would DREAM of asking for a discount at one of the above mentioned places…go figure.
That would be because people Do generally have the ability to change their prices at an independent shop. Do you think the $6 per hour big-box employee has any power to change their prices? Heck no. Then again, if you’re buying something expensive enough, you can always call the manager over & get a deal. Especially if the merchandise is damaged.
The largest reason we haggle though, is because independent shops are so dang expensive. The Exact same problem exists for Scuba shops (though perhaps even more pronounced). I was looking at a computer, it was sold online for around $300. It was sold in the shops for $1200. The explanation is that the manufacturers don’t allow them to sell below MSRP (unless it’s in a large package sale), but things always “fall off the truck” and end up at these online shops who can sell way below the dealers cost.
So, when I want to buy something in a shop, I’m not going to pay $1200 when I could get it for $300 online. I tell them I’ll pay a bit more than online, since I am getting a service, but they have to make some type of deal. Usually Scuba shops are more than happy to make some type of deal. They’ll usually make up a package along with some training, and discount the whole thing. It ends up more expensive than online, but at least you’re shopping local.
the reason
is that the small retailer is in a position to haggle or refuse and the haggler knows it. The staff at a large retailer doesn’t have that discretion so the haggler will exploit that opportunity with the small retailer. The kid at the large store could give a flying duck if someone walks out on the price.
High Density PE has increased
– Last Updated: May-19-06 2:22 PM EST –
approx. $.30 per pound (depending on the grade) over the past 2 1/2 years. Assuming the mfr. can recycle their scrap, the plastic component increase of a 50 lb. kayak is only $15.
I presume the mfr. will mark it up somewhat to the dealer. Nevertheless- it's not a huge increase.
BTW- HDPE is natural gas based.
just got $50 off on a power washer at HD
– Last Updated: May-19-06 2:40 PM EST –
It was last years model. It was already discounted $100. I really did not want to buy it, just one more thing to store and maintain (not to mention it's the cost of a used canoe). I could have rented one or or bought one. (Truth is, I'd have rather rented). I offered $50 less than the ticket and the lady behind the paint counter got 'er done.
If you don't NEED the item and don't really give two flips one way or the other, why not give the store an opportunity to literally "make the sale"?
Edit:
Of course someone is going to pipe up that you never really NEED a canoe or kayak. But, we all know that's not true.
not just paddleshops…
another example of this situtation is:
Kite Shops…
i know of 4 this year that have shut down for this reason…ugh…
oh yeah i worked at one…
A friend in the bicycle business,
another notorious 30% margin zoo, has a car dealer across the street from his shop. Rich HATES to sell bikes to car salesman. He knows his overhead costs, owns a store that has been in business for thirty some years, and is the primary breadwinner for a family of four. And when the car sales guys ask "OK - what is MY price, it really aggravates him. If you have not worked in the outdoor specialty business, you cannot appreciate the situation.
Jim
How many here with a “no haggle” policy
– Last Updated: May-19-06 7:01 PM EST –
... advise almost every newbie who shows up on pnet looking for advice to "buy used"?
How does that affect the local shops?
Of course, someone can say that somebody selling a used boat can now go out and buy a new one.
But, "recycling" used boats is a net loss to the boat builders and the shops that sell their goods.
Why be concerned about paddlers negotiaing some kind of mutual agreement while advising the industry's newcomers to buy used?
Paddle Craft mark-up
Paddling shops, not matter what the size, have very little markup to play with in boat sales (the industry average is about 30%). The only advantage a large shop or chain holds is in multiple item order discounts. A boat is not like a car. A new car has haggle money built into the price. The shop I used to run was only able to deal on boats with some type of damage (cosmetic or other), or where there was some type of customer service issue. If you want discounts, buy online, but don’t complain later when your local dealer goes under and you have no shop to actually go and touch and feel products before you buy, or because you no longer have an outlet for professional service or advice.
Many online firms have the boats shipped from the manufacturer to you, and then you pay the shipping, thus the discount.
The one comment I heard often from customers wishing a discount was that they were buying two or more boats. I used to explain that I only get a discount from the manufacturer by ordering 200 or more boats, but I’d be happy to offer a discount on any accessories you might want to purchase today.
-MEAT
And I stand
humbly corrected!
The synthetics I work with are heavily influenced by petroleum prices and I assumed kayak plastics would be the same.
Thanks for setting the record straight.
Holmes
Most people here are not saying that…
… price haggling is a bad thing simply because it is bad for a paddleshop’s bottom line, so therefore you should not attempt to do it. They are saying that because the shop’s profit margin is small, you shouldn’t EXPECT the shop to leave their prices open to negotiation on a regular basis. There’s a big difference.
My local paddleshops sell used.
Used may frequently mean paddler to paddler, but it is not limited to that. Both of the local shops I frequent sell used boats and one even has a bulletin board for customers to post their boats. Fairly generous I think. Never seen anyone at either shop who looks terribly interested in turning a huge profit. Most seem like they’re there to earn a living, share their love of sport, and stare longingly out the window at the water, or their own boats on the roofs of their cars. Advising newcomers to buy used DOES not automatically mean stealing business from a good local shop. It means advising newcomers that the sport can be expensive (most any sport these days, not just padding) and that used gear can give you the opportunity to learn with out breaking your bank. Many shops have annual or semi-annual sales that are well worth waiting for. Got my Kaos at almost 50% off, from a shop, brand new. Do your research. Plus, a newcomer who finds a shop that says, hey, you’re new and I have this used boat here that might be good for you and save you some bucks…what, you think that’s not a good way to start a long last relationship? I appreciate honesty in dealers. If that means they have to sell at MSRP, ok. If they can let me in on some helpful info or a good find, even better. Both shops around here recommended I look for a used boat when I got my Tempest. They know I come to them consistently for gear, clothes, etc and that I send my friends to them. Don’t chastise folks for recommending used because you’re assuming it steals sales from dealers. And even paddler-paddler sales generally involve a little chit chat, like “where’d you get that skirt?” or “Do you know who can fix this rudder line?” I’ve lived a lot of places and every new place I depend a lot on locals to let me know where the good businesses are.
What the local independant can
– Last Updated: May-19-06 10:25 PM EST –
offer is service. The local paddle shop where I bought 2 boats offers a card that gives 10% off of any paddle accessories for a year after the purchase of a boat. That's a good policy. It gives an incentive to return to buy that better paddle, extra pfd etc. But there is someone there to answer questions, give advice and someone to return to if you have a problem. That's service. Every product I sell has my personal gurantee for quality. If you have a problem, I'll stand behind it. If it is a product I hand-craft, it is guaranteed for life. You have a problem, I take care of it. I'm not cheap, but I'm good and my customers know that. You can't get that service at the discount store. And don't ask me for a discount. You want it cheap, go somewhere else. You have a problem with an ONNO paddle its taken care of. Now there is a quality product with service to match. Should he offer a discount because you want your paddle cheaper than the next guy? Would you ask?Now in fairness, having said that, I don't carry the mass produced product such as a poly kayak that can be bought at a lot of different places. My point is, people don't ask for discounts at other places. It was stated above that the independent has the "power" to make the decision to discount. I don't personally hold a grudge or get P----- off if asked, I simply can't do it. I suppose I could mark it up greatly then give someone a discount and make them think they're getting "a deal" but I don't do that. Let me give you a little secret of retail. If you have a retail store that ROUNTINELY marks their merchandise down 30% - 50% or more then it was marked up TOO HIGH to start with. With a product such as kayaks or canoes, everyone knows how much they cost. If there is an independant who's prices are above the norm don't buy it! If he has high prices and rountinely offers a discount then don't be stupid. Are there ligitimate sales out there? Of course! Some retailers offer discounts to move a stale product or offers items discounted to generate store traffic. Take advantage! But with a boat, its easy to determine if his price is artificially inflated or pretty much the average price or msrp. If so, don't expect a discount.
You put your life savings, the kids college fund, take a 2nd morgage on your house, work 50-60+ hrs a week, give up a normal life, give up many outdoor pursuits, work under stress, give up your salery for a year or more, pay your employees more than you get, when cash flow is slow pay the employees while you get no check that week, put up with unbelieveable obstacles from the Feds, compete with big box stores, and in general hang your fanny out there on a limb hoping it all doesn't come crashing down to ruin to open a retail store only to have people come in wanting a discount...you do that,THEN weigh-in with your opinion. You don't own or operate a small retail store? Then you don't know what you're talking about. Don't mean to sound so blunt but it is as simple as that. Having read what I just wrote, I wonder why I do it!
Next time you stop at McDonalds, call the manager over and "make an offer" on a Big Mac. I'd be curious as to the results!
Javabop
That’s really an unfortunate experience - unfortunate mostly for the dealer, who has lost your business and anyone else’s that you might talk to. I’m always amazed at so-called “businessmen” (or women) who don’t seem to have a clue about what good business practices or sales techniques look like.
I can only think of one similar experience (kayak related) that I’ve had. Short story: tried and tried to get someone to let me demo a boat (an Eddyline, not a cheap boat) and nobody could ever seem to arrange a time or even return my phone calls. I even told them if they’d let me take it out for a few hours, I’d let them hold my license and credit card to make sure I didn’t skip town. No deal. After at least three failed attempts, I finally bought the Eddyline from another dealer (better price anyway) and saw that same boat still sitting in the first dealer’s store a year or so later. Gee, wonder why it never sold. D’oh.
not all shops offer much of value
There’s an underlying current to this thread that premises that small boutique paddle shops may well offer extra value. While I certainly can appreciate that such a veiw might be warranted, I can say flat out that it’s not at all uniformly warranted in the Triangle and Triad regions of NC. In fact, the rudest, sloppiest, most lackadasical sales service I’ve ever recieved, has been from this area’s previously largest paddlesports (only), dealer. I could go into quite some detail about how this particular retailer has alienated me multiple times, and several of my cash paying friends as well. My intent is not to knock them on this public forum. I’m just saying that just because a shop is local and focused on paddlesports doesn’t mean that they’ve earned my business. They sent me right straight to the big box retailer, (REI), who actually offered better sales, service and a significantly lower price on my first mid-grade canoe and accessories.
Based on my experiences and those that I hear from others, I’d guess that a lot of the retailers that poormouth the business, have no real concept just how much business they run out of the store by not taking people seriously.
Along that line, there’s a local chain outdoor retailer that I actually kind of like, but their sales staff is so hit and miss, that it takes extreme diligence to find anybody that knows more than can be read off their website. When a customer comes in asking about lightweight 12’ agile boats with open cockpits, and they try to sell them on $2K sea kayaks, or Hobie Mirage SOT peddle boats, they’re not making any new friends. Likewise, when somebody that just wants a boat to paddle around the lake with their grandkids comes in, and the 20yr old snots that run the joint openly make fun of anybody that would want such a boat, while talking to their pierced friends about how “rad” their last play boat experience was, that store ain’t making any converts, either. I could go on and on about store staff that deride “fishing” boats, or try to sell WW play boats to folks who really just want an occasional relaxing Sunday paddle, etc. etc.
My message, for any would-be retailers that may actually read this, is to make sure you actually listen to the customers and actually offer them something of more value than what they can get elsewhere. Many of us will readily pay more for more perceived value, but won’t pay more just to keep someone in business that isn’t serving any particular need.
guideboatguy
exactly
Jsaults
Re: “To me, haggling implies negotiating at a mid-east street market.”
Yes - good description; well said.
Good comments Natural Wonder
You’re right about all of that. Used to live in the Durham/Raleigh area and I can sympathize with some of your experience. I used to love REI (still love it online) but they have yet to discover Florida. Hello, we’re down here in exile!!! Thanks for adding something different to the discussion. Nice to hear another angle.