Help Choosing Between a Recreational and Touring

Advice
#1

Hi Everyone!

First post here. I’ve been reading the forums here non stop for several days and the amount of useful information I’ve found is staggering! I’m very thankful I found this site. It prevented me from making an uninformed and impulsive purchase of my first Kayak (a Pungo 120) this past weekend. Allow me to explain.

My significant other and I have become quite fond of kayaking this year. We went on two guided tours (on smaller rivers) in Williamsburg, VA in May and did 2 days at Deep Creek Lake in MD. On both of these trips we were in Perception 10.5s.

After doing some rudimentary research, it seemed like the Pungos would be a good fit for us, so I rented a 120 for me (5-11, 190#) and a 105 for her (5-4, 150#) for an 8 mile float down the Susquehanna here in Central PA this past weekend. We both had a blast! I felt the Pungo 120 fit me perfectly. We both loved the huge open cockpits, the dashboard, and the overall stability of the boats. If we didn’t pull up 5 minutes before they closed, I might have purchased at least a 120 for me because they are on end of season sale.

We have some local friends who go out several times a year on the various rivers and streams in the area, and we intend to go with them on most of their trips next year, as well as several trips of our own creation on larger bodies of water (but NOT big water at this time). Most of our friends have hybrids, and just enjoy the floating, fishing and camping (hybrids seem to have a massive storage capacity).

Based on our experiences so far, we both enjoy paddling more than floating. The larger (but still calm) body of water, the better. Our friends are the opposite. They prefer to float (and drink).

Based on my research here, I don’t think it is a wise decision to go out on a pair of Pungos with their single bulkheads on any large body of water, no matter how calm it is. We paddled those Perceptions out into the middle of the widest part of Deep Creek, and didn’t even consider what might happen if one of us flipped. Being novices, I don’t think either of us would be capable of swimming or towing a waterlogged boat and passenger more than a couple hundred yards, let alone a half mile or more.

I’ve been researching like crazy the past few days, and a touring boat seems like a more ideal purchase for me seeing how I prefer larger bodies of water. It will be faster, track better, and with training I should be able to get back in it in deep water. On the other hand, a 14 foot touring boat seems like a bad choice for smaller rivers and streams due to lesser stability and being harder to turn.

One of the first things I learned reading here is that no one boat does everything well. My true dilemma is that for the foreseeable future, we will be doing 50/50 of smaller streams/rivers and larger calm lakes, and each calls for a different boat. As our experience level increases, we will probably invest in some proper training on paddle techniques, rolling, and recovering from a capsize, but for now I would like to make an intelligent decision that keeps us both safe while we learn (and practice) this wonderful hobby.

Sorry for the long post! Any advice is greatly appreciated.

1 Like
#2

In the long run, you will most likely be happier with a touring kayak. The Pungo is 29” wide. A typical touring kayak will be around 24” wide; still very stable feeling, but will glide better for speed and covering distance.

I upgraded from a Emotion Glide to a Necky Manitou after one year and loved the extra speed and longer distances I could paddle. I have more higher end kayaks now, but I still enjoy paddling the Necky. I hate paddling anything over 25” now, so I sold/gave away my original rec boats. My sea kayaks are 21” wide and it requires some experience to feel completely comfortable.

This is a great time of year to buy used on Craigslist. Fourteen feet and under will be fine for narrow creeks, but at 14 feet you start to find dual bulkheads. Check Craigslist and post here if you find anything of interest. I just checked a Philadelphia yesterday, and there were two Perception Carolinas that would be good for your wife. You should be able to find wonderful used touring boats for $600-700.

See you on the water.

Adrian

#3

They’re like golf clubs you need a lot of them…

#4

@grayhawk said:
They’re like golf clubs you need a lot of them…

Don’t a lot golfers spend a crapton of money on the hobby and eventually give up because they never get better?

#5

@grayhawk said:
They’re like golf clubs you need a lot of them…

It is ok to buy and then upgrade. Its OK to have boats that do some things well and others that do other things well.

You are at the threshold of making a decision. “Floater” or “Paddler” The good thing is you recognize the difference. … I know you enjoyed the big cockpit but did you know it reduced your contact and control of the boat and the capabilities of the boat? The touring boat, aka sea kayak, has smaller cockpit so you can edge, and turn the boat better. (lessons) If you are going to get serious about paddling pick the one with pointy ends and close cockpit, the touring boat. What ever you do sit in the boat before you buy it.

As far as a 14 ft boats goes that is a short boat that can turn easily if the paddler has learned the right skills.

You can spend a lot of money on any hobby. .

#6

@burnout1620 said:

I’ve been researching like crazy the past few days, and a touring boat seems like a more ideal purchase for me seeing how I prefer larger bodies of water. It will be faster, track better, and with training I should be able to get back in it in deep water. On the other hand, a 14 foot touring boat seems like a bad choice for smaller rivers and streams due to lesser stability and being harder to turn.

Welcome to a great sport and congrats for doing research before buying. Most newcomers don’t and I’ll freely admit I made that mistake, although I didn’t wind up with a box-store boat but a 10-foot Necky slug which I replaced six weeks later out of sheer frustration. Short fat rec boats don’t do anything well but float. Until they’re capsized. Then they partially sink.

My shortest boat is 14’ long and 22.5’" wide (Eddyline Samba). Two sealed bulkheads, a skeg, perimeter lines and deck rigging. Before I purchased my sea kayaks, I paddled the Samba on large inland lakes, Lake Michigan, and various small rivers.
I took my ACA L2 with that boat on Lake Michigan. It’s quick, very maneuverable and the only reason I haven’t sold it is because it’s now my boat specifically for rivers.

Stability has more to do with you than the boat. Seat time is your friend as is boat control by learning edging, bow rudders, stern rudders, draws, hanging draws, sweep strokes, sculling, forward and reverse strokes. That’s one aspect I love the about the sport: there’s a lot more involved than just going forward.

Enjoy your journey; there’s tons of great information in the “Learn” tab of the site, as well as at this site created by a few ACA topnotch coaches: http://www.paddlesafely.com/

Happy boat hunting and paddling.

#7

I have paddled a lot in Central and Western PA. I live in Pittsburgh and my ex BF and paddling partner for many years lived right on the Susquehanna River in Clearfield County – we paddled widely all over PA and adjacent states. A 14’ or 15’ day touring kayak will serve you well for most lake and river paddling throughout the region and also give you the option if you want to expand your range to Lake Erie or the Chesapeake Bay eventually. We used to take our 15’ by 22" touring kayaks (Venture Easkys) on the Red Moshannon, for example, which is winding, somewhat narrow and has class 1 and 2 rapids and open rock gardens in spots. The narrower longer boats are faster and less apt to be affected by wind on larger lakes too. They also give you enough cargo room to take camping gear if you want to do something like overnight tours on the various Susquehanna Water Trails. And they will allow you to keep pace with others in touring kayaks if you join group trips as well as hone your paddling and safety techniques. I think it is hard to beat boats in that mid-range (14’ or 15’ and under 25" beam) for versatility on inland and even coastal waters.

#8

Go used. You’ll very likely end up wanting a different boat after you’ve paddled for a while, and have a better idea of your needs. If you get a good deal you can often re-sell for the same price you paid, or at least not lose much. And frequently people offer package deals, throwing in equipment you need that is itself quite expensive to purchase new. It’s a good time to buy.

Use the money you save for lessons!

#9

As above, the the boat is not the issue with turning or stability in a 14 footer. Paddlers are because new ones think that is so, but reading the above you will have disabused yourself of that notion very quickly. The only exception is really narrow windy creeks, but that lies more on the floating side of the equation.

If you take the advice to go used on a touring boat, you can turn the boat around in a year after you have developed more specific tastes.

FWIW, my husband went to the recreational side of boats for our first kayaks, figured solving 90% of the issue would be OK. Worked fine on local stuff inland here. We were on the coast of Maine exactly 4 days before the 5th, where some weather came up and we got to spend 3 hours waiting it out on an island making up a list of what kind of boat and gear we really needed.

#10

If you don’t enjoy just floating buy a touring boat. Advice I would have liked to have first is to buy something that stretches your comfort level. Buy more boat than you think you can handle, you will grow into it.

Buying used helps and there are a lot of them out there. Don’t just look at Necky, I think they are overpriced. Perception Carolinas would be cheaper and might fit you both.

#11

Here’s a nice deal on a used touring boat located near Deep Creek, Maryland. 15’ Perception Captiva for $300.

https://pittsburgh.craigslist.org/boa/d/accident-kayak/6988579291.html

#12

It appears carry weight and storage length are not issues. For me 2 boats are the answer, a grab and go light 9 ft sot and a 13 ft rec with rear bulkhead for more longer paddles.

#13

Where in PA? I’ll likely have to go to Scranton and Easton in the relatively near future, can deliver the Demo Model Venture Islay 12 & Islay 14’s that won’t be used in my pool programs this winter.

Lot’s of options exist in that touring range and your questions have you on a good track. Front/rear bulkheads, full deck rigging, skeg a plus/or rudder.

See you on the water,
Marshall Seddon
The River Connection, Inc.
9 W. Market St.
Hyde Park, NY. 12538
845-229-0595 main
845-242-4731 mobile
Main: www.the-river-connection.com
Store: www.the-river-connection.us
Facebook: fb.me/theriverconnection

#14

Keep shopping craigslist. Buy inexpensive used boats and figure out what you really want that way. My first touring boat was $225 and a couple hour drive after work. The more you paddle, the more you learn what you want and like.

#15

Why monkey around with the preliminaries. At the very least you should try out a real sea kayak. The tippy feel goes away quickly and then you will be spoiled for anything less One truly great kayak for both of you would be the Current Designs Sirocco, There should be a bunch of used ones around, but even new they aren’t too spendy. Some might think the Sirocco is too big for your gal, but she should give it a try and let her decide.

If you haven’t figured it out yet the paddles and pfds you select are very big deals.

#16

“Based on our experiences so far, we both enjoy paddling more than floating. The larger (but still calm) body of water, the better. Our friends are the opposite. They prefer to float (and drink).”
If you really enjoy the paddling, and that nice glide across the water, I would recommend forgoing the rec boat step. Granted, it is all relative - I haven’t found anything that turns as easily as an inner tube - but there are 17 foot kayaks that are quite easy to turn, so going 14 foot could be considered a nice conservative approach.
Then again, “We both loved the huge open cockpits, the dashboard, and the overall stability of the boats.”
This suggests an inclination towards comfortable recreation without worrying about developing skills.
The huge open cockpits on shorter, wider kayaks are no good for open water and open water skills, such as the ability to continue meaningful travel when wind and chop kick up.
I’ve always heard the “different kayaks are appropriate for different bodies of water” thing. I find the difference in one paddler to another is far more important than the body of water.
The rivers and streams where you’re concerned a 14’ kayak may not be a good choice because of stability and difficulty in turning, I quite likely would be happiest in a 16 - 18 foot kayak.
It’s most often more about how a paddler feels in a kayak, and their mastery of it. The more time and energy you have and will enjoy putting into learning, the less perfectly comfortable you have to feel in the kayak at first, and vice versa. One paddler will do a series of forward and reverse sweep strokes to go around a 120 degree sharp bend, wobbling and unsteady the whole time, wishing they were sitting on an inner tube for the moment. A different paddler in the same boat will keep momentum, do a single sweep with an edge, put the opposite blade in the water on the other side as a bow rudder at the end of that sweep stroke, and transition it into a forward stroke as they finish the turning and continue along. This person had no desire to be in an inner tube for that moment.

#17

Thanks everyone for the replies! I already recognize many of you from the countless other threads just like this one!

Turns out the place we rented the Pungos from also rent Tsunamis. I can get myself a 140 and her a 125 to try. Only problem is, the Susquehanna just isn’t very interesting right now. Water is very low, and the only dramatic spot is a tiny section near the statue.

I think in order to appreciate a touring boat (or even notice a difference) I need to be on something a little bigger than the Susquehanna. More importantly, I need her to be able to notice a difference. The first thing she will say in a 12 foot touring boat is “I hate this tiny cockpit.” I think I want to be in an environment where we have a few hours of paddling ahead of us so the advantages of a touring boat will be more obvious to her.

@Marshall said:
Where in PA? I’ll likely have to go to Scranton and Easton in the relatively near future, can deliver the Demo Model Venture Islay 12 & Islay 14’s that won’t be used in my pool programs this winter.

I live in central PA, not far from Harrisburg. On that note, there aren’t a ton of larger lakes in the area, so part of my research has become finding how many nice big, calm lakes there are within a days drive of me.

#18

Seriously, move on a couple of basic lessons asap especially if you have a spouse that may initially dislike the characteristics of a sea kayak. IMO it really helps to get lessons that include a little time on assisted rescues. It gets falling out of the boat fear out of the way, both of you will immediately find out why a touring/sea kayak has all that stuff and if you pay someone else for it you are in the clear on any disagreements. Many places the water is still OK if they have a couple of wet suits they can put you in.

If you want to be aggressive on rolling, you will want something narrower and lower decked and likely tighter cockpit for yourself than the Tsunami. Not that it can’t be made to work, but there are boats that will make learning to roll a lot easier. Rolling can be interesting enough for some people by itself, without adding in a boat that was not designed for people having that as a major interest.

If you could entice Marshall to spend some time on the water with you both it’d be well worth it.

#19

How far are you from Raystown Lake?

#20

@willowleaf said:
How far are you from Raystown Lake?

We’re a pretty easy 2 hour drive from Raystown. Looking for a place to go the weekend of the 12th&13th… any good rental places up there?

Celia, I love your post. I’ve begun to look around for some lessons, particularly when it comes to self rescue. My other half doesn’t seem to be taking my stance on safety quite as serious as I would like. She would be quite content paddling in the middle of deep creek lake (like we did) in a rec boat and never have the thought occur to her that it’s even possible to capsize let alone how to get a boat back to shore without help. Perhaps during some training there’ll be a demonstration of a single bulkhead boat underwater for emphasis on how unsafe they can be?

I’m also overwhelming her with all of my research. I think at this point in time she would be just as content floating or paddling, so insisting she gets a touring boat right off the bat may not be the best way to draw her more into the nuances of the hobby.

My short term plan looks like this:

-get out on a bigger body of water on a pair of touring boats before the season ends if possible

-find a pair of boats that we both like (if she decides she prefers a rec boat, I won’t try to change her mind, I’ll need to think about float bags & bilge pumps and learning how to tow for rescue until she graduates to a different boat)

-get some basic pool training over the winter, which will hopefully include proper paddling form, advanced maneuvering techniques, and self rescue (rolling will be a ways off but maybe cheating with a paddle float will suffice)

In the end I want to be fully equipped and prepared to hit the water next summer, getting in plenty of practice for what we are hoping to be several days of kayaking Lake Winnipesaukee in NH next August.