Help needed for Siberia river trip planning

Hi all,

I am planning a trip this summer with a friend to Kayak the Vitim river in Siberia. We are both quite new to Kayaking but have lots of experience in other extreme outdoor adventure sports.

The trip will involve a 3 day hike to reach our start point (so weight is a big issue) and the river itself is mostly calm but has occasional class II rapids and a few places that could be class III.

For the price and weight we have zeroed in on this boat https://www.awesomescreenshot.com/image/3398949/df1d4b81592b6069b6f3ac9d53af898f

I know it i probably not the first choice for this kind of thing, but is it at least a somewhat reasonable choice?

Many thanks for your answers!

Jordan

How far is the river portion of the trip? How many days are you expecting it to take?

I agree with Peter that we would need more information on trip duration. Honestly, I have used skin on frame boats for 16 years and am not impressed with the stats on that craft you are looking at. It’s really too wide for paddling a river any distance and too short and flat bottomed to track decently. In fact, it looks to be a knock off of the older 10’ versions of the Pakboat Puffin. I have a more recent 12’ Pakboat Puffin (weighs 23 pounds) that has similar characteristics (single inflatable sponson and removable deck. I use it for pond and shallow warm stream paddling and would not dream of trying to use it for the kind of expedition you are planning – I certainly would not take it in class II or III rapids. Having only two air chambers is not really safe when you are in a remote area in cold water for one thing. A puncture could mean a very bad day and even losing all your gear and food, if not your life. .Are you willing to risk your life on a $300 boat? I would not.

I would suggest you look into pack rafts (in fact you can even make your own – look at http://www.DIYpackrafts.com. They are light and multi-chambered, designed for the sort of “hike in and paddle” trip you are considering, though they are also rather slow and don’t track well so would not be ideal for traveling great distances with any speed.

Or consider a Pakboat Pakcanoe – the folding Pakcanoes have a long reputation of being used by guides from the Arctic to Patagonia. A 16’ tandem Pakcanoe 160 weighs 24 kilos – 12 for each of you if you split the package and would be an expedition proven craft that could handle open rapids. Pakboat also makes touring kayaks - their tandem XT-16 weighs 20 kg (10 kg each) and has plenty of storage capacity and a strong frame. I used to have the 15’ solo version and it was a strong and capable boat.

http://pakboats.com/pakcanoes/

http://pakboats.com/folding-kayaks/

Might be cheaper (and safer) to book this trip with a guide who will provide the boats. Are you familiar with water temperatures? This is a subarctic region. Even the guides portage around the bigger rapids. Two newbies alone on a river like this in unproven gear is a recipe for a tragedy, IMHO. There will be no cell phone calls for a rescue extraction there.

http://www.lonewolfadventures.com/guided-adventure-travel/kayak-adventure-on-muya-and-vitim-river/

Thanks for all that Willowleaf. As for more details of the trip, As I said we would be hiking in for about 20 miles so weight is an issue. We would not reach our first town with a store for food until day 11. Final destination would be around day 20. We would be three people so sharing weight between three. So we would be relying on dehydrated food and fish for the first leg of the trip with that chance to stock up about halfway through. The name of the river is Vitim. We orginally considered to buy the same boat as this guy: http://www.valentinvolk.com/vitim_2011/dnevnik_1.html (if you use Chrome you can right click to translate). Here are the specs of his boat: https://www.awesomescreenshot.com/image/3399605/cbcf3ebde807086456ab34c6f115e730

And in case you are curious (unfortunately its all in russian) you can check out the actual website of this boatmaker, its kindof cool that you can see in the video how it is assembled and how gear is stored: http://www.aquagraphic.spb.ru/boats/PPb/

That guy did the exact same route and river we did on that boat and said it worked fine for him. That being said it is not flat bottomed and is longer. But being quite new to this we are not so sure on how these characteristics precisely effect the maneuverability of the boat and its readiness to be used in long trips.

We originally planned to use that same boat as him, but then were swayed into the idea of the single person kayak, but yes unfortunately a bit wide and flat bottomed.

That DIY pack-in website is great! Thanks for that. But I guess it has the same speed and maneuverability limitations as the one we were looking at and does not have the deck and skirt that ours would have. As for the Pakboats…they look great but just way out of our price range.

Anyways, hope this info give you more of what you might need to advise us. We know there are much better options out there, and this yellow “Great Rogue” russian made craft is not ideal, but I guess we just want to know if it is a flat out stupid choice or if its do-able. And of course if anyone has an idea of something in the $500 price range more or less that is better we’re all ears.

@willowleaf said:
Might be cheaper (and safer) to book this trip with a guide who will provide the boats. Are you familiar with water temperatures? This is a subarctic region. Even the guides portage around the bigger rapids. Two newbies alone on a river like this in unproven gear is a recipe for a tragedy, IMHO. There will be no cell phone calls for a rescue extraction there.

http://www.lonewolfadventures.com/guided-adventure-travel/kayak-adventure-on-muya-and-vitim-river/

And yes, thanks for the concern and the idea of a guide, but we are pretty set on trying it alone. We will have emergency rescue insurance and a Delorme satellite responder. We have found a handful of blogs from other people who did the same river also with little or no experience. Im sure its not the safest journey to set out on, but it will be an adventure :wink:

Please make sure we don’t read about your trip in the news that starts “Kayakers lost…”

Have you ever taken a 3 week kayaking trip, anywhere? Have you ever rafted or kayaked class II and III rapids? Do you know how to self rescue in a kayak? Do you know that decked skin on frame kayaks can be swamped and sink if the bow and stern are not either carefully packed to full volume with sealed drybags or inflatable flotation bags? I know these boats have inflatable sponsons (the side tubes that shape the hull) but this does not offset the need to fill in the stern and bow voids.

What kind of “experience in extreme outdoor adventure sports” are you relying on to make this kind of trip. Have you had any formal training in paddlesports like rafting, canoeing or, more important, kayaking technique and safety? Such skills are not “intuitive”.

My scrutiny is serious. I was a guide and a wilderness sports instructor for many years and have personally known quite a few people (all men, in fact) who thought that they could take on unfamiliar challenges in remote areas just because they were “tough guys” who’d had some success in other sports. Quite a few required costly rescues and placed other people in danger due to their recklessness. A dozen of them died.

I would never take on a trip such as you are contemplating without doing at least a week shakedown on familiar waters with the equipment (boat included) that I was considering for use.

By the way, that second boat you posted cannot be used by 3 paddlers. The center seat is so that it can be paddled solo. It is too short and does not have enough displacement capacity for 3 adults and gear.

My advice would be to postpone the trip until you
(1.) get some instruction and experience in multi-day kayak tripping
(2.) can afford to buy competent boats – this is not a trip to do in glorified pool toys.

@willowleaf said:
Have you ever taken a 3 week kayaking trip, anywhere?

This would be a first

Have you ever rafted or kayaked class II and III rapids?

Yes, have rafted class IV several times, but never kayaked

Do you know how to self rescue in a kayak?

We plan to do a 1/2 day crash course with an instructor in whatever boat we choose to get some basic knowledge down

Do you know that decked skin on frame kayaks can be swamped and sink if the bow and stern are not either carefully packed to full volume with sealed drybags or inflatable flotation bags? I know these boats have inflatable sponsons (the side tubes that shape the hull) but this does not offset the need to fill in the stern and bow voids.

I did not know that, thanks for that info, I will do some more research to educate myself some more about this.

What kind of “experience in extreme outdoor adventure sports” are you relying on to make this kind of trip. Have you had any formal training in paddlesports like rafting, canoeing or, more important, kayaking technique and safety? Such skills are not “intuitive”.

Aside from being part of a white water rafting tour 3 or 4 times and working as a Sea Kayaking guide for a short stint on flat water I have no other river experience. I am certified in wilderness first aid and have plenty experience in mountaineering…to your point not river experience.

My scrutiny is serious. I was a guide and a wilderness sports instructor for many years and have personally known quite a few people (all men, in fact) who thought that they could take on unfamiliar challenges in remote areas just because they were “tough guys” who’d had some success in other sports. Quite a few required costly rescues and placed other people in danger due to their recklessness. A dozen of them died.

I would never take on a trip such as you are contemplating without doing at least a week shakedown on familiar waters with the equipment (boat included) that I was considering for use.

By the way, that second boat you posted cannot be used by 3 paddlers. The center seat is so that it can be paddled solo. It is too short and does not have enough displacement capacity for 3 adults and gear.

Yes, we did not intent to try and put three on there, if we choose that boat the third person (who is only doing the first 9 days of the tripp) would go in the single flat bottom boat

My advice would be to postpone the trip until you
(1.) get some instruction and experience in multi-day kayak tripping
(2.) can afford to buy competent boats – this is not a trip to do in glorified pool toys.

By the way, forgot to thank you for your input and concern @willowleaf .

In a new development, I came across this company that seems to make affordable inflatable rafts that would likely be safer and perform better than what we were considering before. We are now thinking about one of these guy for two of us:

https://www.seaeagle.com/ExplorerKayaks/380x
https://www.seaeagle.com/FastTrackKayaks/385ft

The third person would take a lighter weight single person kayak similar to the original one we were looking at. They will only do the first 9 days of the trip which are the easiest in technicality (only class II).

Any thoughts on these choices?

The Fast Track model would be better than the Explorer since it has a drop stitch floor which makes the hull more rigid. The problem with many cheap inflatable kayaks is that if they don’t have a rigid floor (by drop stitch construction or having a metal frame to reinforce) the floors tend to sag under the paddlers’ weight and that makes the boats slow and hard to steer. Also, that tandem Fast Track is 35 pounds and inflatables are all one piece – you can’t split it up between two or more packers so one person would have to carry the entire weight. I’m sure you could work this out – the other two people would carry the bulk of the camping gear and food. Though you all have to carry PFD’s and paddles.

By the way, you will need good paddles. I highly recommend Cannon’s 4-piece breakdown kayak paddles. I use one when I fly with my folding kayaks because the pieces fit in a rolling duffel with my boat and all my gear that meets “free baggage” requirements on airlines. Here is a link to the source I use. I have this paddle – these are factory seconds so the price is very good. It’s a light and strong paddle. A light and well designed paddle is important for a long trip.

https://www.airkayaks.com/sale-cannon-wave-4pc-carbon-breakdown-paddle-230cm/

The company AirKayak.com would be your best source for portable inflatable boats – they have the best selection anywhere and always have special deals. Look at some of their Innova inflatables. The Vagabond canoe (third link) might be a good option since it will have more cargo capacity than the kayaks and 100 pounds higher capacity. Notice it comes with its own backpack:

https://www.airkayaks.com/sale-innova-helios-ii-ex-inflatable-kayak-for-1-or-2-paddlers/

https://www.airkayaks.com/innova-solar-410c-inflatable-kayak-for-1-3-paddlers/

https://www.airkayaks.com/innova-vagabond-inflatable-canoe-for-1-2-paddlers/

They also have lightweight packrafts like this 9.5 pound version:

https://www.airkayaks.com/sale-kokopelli-nirvana-9-5-lb-inflatable-whitewater-packraft-with-spraydeck/

By the way, here is a photo of one of my solo folding kayaks (23 pound Pakboat Puffin) showing the set up kayak, then packed with all the necessary safety gear and clothing for paddling and a photo of what is in that bag. The rolling duffel bag meets dimensions and weight for checked baggage without overweight fees and weighs 48 pounds with all my outfitting.


@willowleaf said:
The Fast Track model would be better than the Explorer since it has a drop stitch floor which makes the hull more rigid. The problem with many cheap inflatable kayaks is that if they don’t have a rigid floor (by drop stitch construction or having a metal frame to reinforce) the floors tend to sag under the paddlers’ weight and that makes the boats slow and hard to steer. Also, that tandem Fast Track is 35 pounds and inflatables are all one piece – you can’t split it up between two or more packers so one person would have to carry the entire weight. I’m sure you could work this out – the other two people would carry the bulk of the camping gear and food. Though you all have to carry PFD’s and paddles.

@willowleaf Thanks so much…this is great info!
We were also leaning towards the Fast Track option. And yea we realized one person would be stuck with the kayak for the hike but as you said that can be managed.

By the way, you will need good paddles. I highly recommend Cannon’s 4-piece breakdown kayak paddles. I use one when I fly with my folding kayaks because the pieces fit in a rolling duffel with my boat and all my gear that meets “free baggage” requirements on airlines. Here is a link to the source I use. I have this paddle – these are factory seconds so the price is very good. It’s a light and strong paddle. A light and well designed paddle is important for a long trip.

https://www.airkayaks.com/sale-cannon-wave-4pc-carbon-breakdown-paddle-230cm/

This is a great recommendation, thanks. We just started to focus on choosing a craft so hadnt made it as far as paddles yet but the one you recommended looks great, we will probably end up with those

The company AirKayak.com would be your best source for portable inflatable boats – they have the best selection anywhere and always have special deals. Look at some of their Innova inflatables. The Vagabond canoe (third link) might be a good option since it will have more cargo capacity than the kayaks and 100 pounds higher capacity. Notice it comes with its own backpack:

https://www.airkayaks.com/innova-vagabond-inflatable-canoe-for-1-2-paddlers/

Agreed that Vagabond looks like it could be a good option. Is there anything in the specs of that that would lead you to choose it over the Sea Eagle Fast Track?

They also have lightweight packrafts like this 9.5 pound version:

https://www.airkayaks.com/sale-kokopelli-nirvana-9-5-lb-inflatable-whitewater-packraft-with-spraydeck/

So this is really making us reconsider our previous options. You were not the only experienced kayaker who has suggested we go with a white-water rated packraft instead of one of these kayak designs. The truth is if we could be convinced they are a good option in reliability, comfort, and safety then we would prefer that route (it would allow us to each have our own craft and stay within weight and money budget). So how would you compare one of those two person inflatable kayaks to a decent white-water rated packraft? Being less experienced would we find it much harder to handle? And is terms of comfort…any big difference? And then safety…if we will only be doing class II+ rapids would we be just as well (or better) riding solo in two of those packrafts than going tandem in something like the Fasttrack kayak?

BTW, I realize now in my previous message it looked as if I was saying we were going to do a half day crash course with a kayak instructor, but I wanted to say 1 OR 2 day course…I think we took the decision to do a full weekend course

My understanding is that the Vitim is a fairly fast flowing river. The drawback to packrafts is that they are wide and chubby so that you can’t paddle them swiftly as you can a long narrow kayak or canoe. But if you are traveling downstream in a fast flowing river you are being propelled by the current and don’t have to work to paddle the boat forward – this is an ideal situation for a packraft.

By the way, that 4 piece Cannon paddle has another benefit that could be helpful when you hit white water areas of the river. You can leave one of the two center segments of the paddle shaft out and assemble it as a shorter 3 piece paddle. Having a shorter paddle in whitewater gives you a control advantage in being able to quickly turn the boat to choose your route through obstacles.

You might want to send an email to the guy at DIYpackraft.com. He’s an experienced packrafter and can tell you more about how the rafts are used. Also the company Alpacka specializes in packrafts and they have some great information on their website about packrafting and some examples of expeditions that have used them:

https://www.alpackaraft.com/rafting/welcome-alpacka-raft/

My suggestion of the Vagabond canoe is that it can carry more gear (and weight) while still maintaining a high waterline (which means less water resistance and more stability. You can also paddle it by either sitting on the seats or, for white water situations, kneeling so that you are closer to the water and have a lower center of gravity. Being able to switch off paddling positions can make for an easier long day.

You can get a 5 pound Alpacka solo packraft for around $600. The 38 pound Vagabond canoe is $900. For $1500 (or $500 each) you could get the canoe and the packraft. This would enable the three of you to trade off paddling tandem in the canoe and solo in the packraft. The cargo capacity of the canoe would enable you to haul all of the food and gear you will need easily. Both craft are rated for up to Class II whitewater. You would even have the option of carrying 3 people in the canoe and towing the packraft with the gear stashed in it, which could be an option for parts of the river with slow current.

40 pounds is not an unreasonable pack-load for hiking in to the river for each person. Since one of you would carry the 38 pound canoe the other two would still have 75 pounds between them of carrying capacity even if one had the packraft in his pack. Allowing 8 to 10 pounds for a 3 person tent and 5 pounds for cooking gear, stove and fuel, 10 pounds for paddling gear (3 PFDs, 3 paddles, bilge pump and drybags) that would leave you 50 pounds of capacity for food, clothing and sleeping bags and pads. Since you’ve been into wilderness sports for a while I presume you already have fairly lightweight gear for that. Even 50 pounds of pack is not that bad for a grown man so you have some leeway. I’m only 145 lbs and have carried as much as 65 pounds on mountaineering trips in my younger days (though not happily – 40 is my comfort limit).

The PFD’s will be bulky but can be strapped to the outside of your packs so they won’t take up a lot of interior space, same for the 4-piece paddles (get stuffsacks to fit the pieces so you can strap them to the packs.) Be sure and get LOTS of drybags for all your stuff and bring plenty of nylon rope and straps to tie everything into the boats. You can get kits to glue extra d-rings to inflatable boats – the more the merrier. Mesh cargo nets are also handy for containing your gear in the boats and can be used on land to hoist food into a tree to keep critters from raiding it while you camp.

In addition to a gas fuel stove, you might want to have one of the ultralight woodburning versions for backup. This one only weighs 8 ounces and can be packed inside your cookpots. https://www.rei.com/product/139469/toaks-titanium-backpacking-wood-burning-stove

Thanks again for the help.

So yea I did try and get some info from the guy behind the DIY packraft site, he responded but his answer was pretty brief. He recommended their solo one as opposed to the two person one. I was thinking maybe a one person packraft would not be big enough to also take our gear…was thinking to use a two person one with just one person in it. But he suggested the one person without much of an explanation.

Some people also pointed out that the packraft will collect a lot of water and might not be so comfortable as such…rains, small rapids, etc. But maybe we just deal with it. We didnt plan to bring drysuits, but of course PFD’s and raingear. The third person in our party will only go half way, so when he leaves if we dont like the packraft we can just keep the 2 person kayak. Those same people (these were russians I found in a Russian forum) who have actually done this river also chose the Russian 2 seater (this one: https://www.awesomescreenshot.com/image/3399605/cbcf3ebde807086456ab34c6f115e730 ) over the sea eagle because they all said we would be thankful to have the deck and skirt. They might be right. Im gonna see if you could also put a deck/skirt on that vagabond you found.

Anyways, I am also starting to see things the same way as you. One two person kayak style and one packraft. We can all switch off and like this each gain experience in two very different crafts to help us learn how we want to do these things in the future.

For the packraft we will look for something real-deal that is used, if we cant find it we will probably do the DIY one. Still can’t decide which of the 2 person kayaks to choose from though…

Hi all, we survived :slight_smile:

I owe to everyone who took the time to respond to my post to give a little post-trip review. So the very very short version of the story is that everything was fine, we survived, never encountered anything that we felt we could not deal with, that being said nothing quite went exactly as planned.

You could say that we made two main mistakes in our planning. The first was to assume that we could keep the same pace as the guy (the only human to our knowledge who has ever kayaked this exact route) did when he did this. We were way off the mark there. Now that we have attempted this its clear that he is a superhuman badass with magical powers that somehow allowed him to cover the number of kilometers daily that he did. (We never thought our lack of skills could keep up with his surplus of skills, but our rational in assuming we could keep the same pace was based on the fact that the year he did it was one of the driest years in a decade, very low water levels and we were going on a year with exceptionally high water levels, we assumed the high water levels would translate into more current that would help us keep the same pace…we were off the mark there)

The second mistake in our planned was definitely the packraft. The rivers we were on were often really slow, sometimes with no current at all. The packraft killed us. It was just too slow. To refresh your memories we were 3 people…we had chosen a russian made 2-person kayak with a V shaped bottom which weight about 18kg and a because that was already a lot of weight (we also had almost a weeks worth of food and gear that we thought we would be carrying on our backs) we chose for the third person a packraft. Well, we ended up dragging it behind the kayak with a rope. Its a long story but in the end because there was such heavy rainfall in the weeks before we left we ended up arriving at our put-in point by horseback, which was not only a good decision but was pretty much the only option at that point. If we had known we would go by horseback we could have taken different crafts that weigh more, but we didnt. The packraft was impossibly slow in the slow water. If it wasnt for the packraft we would have had a better chance of keeping the same pace as our predecessor (although it still would have been tough, he’s a machine).

Otherwise, our glorified russian pool toy was actually a great choice (albeit I have no previous experience to compare with). It held up fine. So did the Kokopelli packraft aside from its lack of speed.

The route was definitely remote, we encountred one guy who had been living by himself for in a tiny cabin with no other peopel within 100k next to the river. We had tea with him and he said that in 45 years living out there we were the first people to come down that river other than the occasional hunter who actually live in that area.

As for the river itself we did two small parts that I would guess were class III, and a bunch of small class I and II here and there between the pancake parts. No issues.

All in all the trip was a hell of an adventure. Full-on. Not easy by any means. There was lots of on the fly adapting and problem solving but all do-able. The big problem was the speed. We got so behind in our schedule that there was no way we would have made it to our finish line (which we had to make by a certain date because there is no way out from there other than a small supply plane that flys in once a month). So the short of it is that we had to cut the trip in half (there was only one place that was connected to the outside world by road that was about at the halfway mark). So we didnt reach our goal, but I feel we got plenty of bang for our buck.

I am blogging about the trip, in installments. Feel free to check it out: www.thescenicroutethroughlife.com

Thanks again for the advice

PS: We are selling the Kokopelli packraft and three carbon paddles if anyone is interested

Thanks for the summary! It is always good to hear the results of a trip where we have tried to give input…Whether good or bad!

Thanks for the trip report – I was wondering a few weeks ago how that trip went and if we would hear back from you.

I did warn you that packrafts were slow – sorry that ended up cutting your trip short.

And my one experience with Russian-made inflatable kayaks was that they are pretty slow as well. We used to kayak with a Russian guy, a prof at one of our local colleges, who had a Russian 3-man inflatable kayak he had brought over with him. The thing was ungodly slow and we always had to wait for him and his buddy or buddies to catch up with us on river trips (he often paddled tandem). The main problem seemed to be that the hull flexed under the weight of the occupants and created a lot of drag. We called it the Borscht Banana Slug.