Hi, I am new here and I would like some advice regarding my daughters current design raven kayak. We do light touring trips on large lakes in Canada. My daughter is 12 years old, but very slightly built. Whenever we get some wind, which can be quite frequently, she really battles to keep her kayak straight and ends up getting exhausted. I would like some advice on what I can do to help her. What would you recommend, perhaps getting a rudder attached? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.
I don’t know anything about the Raven per se (other than hearing people speak quite highly of it) but if the problem is that she’s too light for the boat, one option would be to weigh the boat down a bit (e.g., maybe with filled some water bladders) to (a) sink it into the water a bit more (prioritizing the stern as that is the part that’s trying to swing around if your fighting a cross wind) while (b) simultaneously decreasing, albeit minimally, the amount of wind the boat is catching. That seems like a lot of bother for a day trip, but if you are talking about overnight trips, you could put the heavier gear/supplies in the back of the Raven while you paddle with some of the lighter stuff. Otherwise, just learn the various techniques for paddling in wind (if you haven’t done so already) . So again, if the issue is paddling with a cross-wind, shift the paddle a bit to the windward side, lean into the wind (especially during strokes on that side), add a little sweep to the strokes on that side (and conversely, keep strokes on the other side close to the hull insofar as safety allows) and, when needed, get used to ending the stroke on that side with a stern draw. I hear that it’s the last third of the windward side sweep that is most effective in fighting weathercocking. Also, the tendency for your boat to turn into the wind is promoted by speed, so if it’s turning into a real struggle, it might be advantageous just to slow down a bit.
If you get yourself a tow belt and line, along with some basic training, you can hook up to her bow in strong wind and help keep it on course. You probably won’t be doing much pulling if she’s a decent paddler.
Instead you let her focus on paddling straight ahead rather than using all her energy keeping the boat on course.
There’s also some recent discussion about ballast (dead weight) judiciously placed to tame a boat that doesn’t want to behave for a light weight paddler. If your tripping involves portaging this might be the actual gear you’re using. If you’re putting most in your boat and leaving hers almost empty, it puts her at a disadvantage in strong wind. If that’s the case put more in the front of her boat and see at what point it makes a difference.
In my very limited experience with this (a single towing class), it seemed like towing across the wind with a long tow was quite problematic as the boat being towed would alternately swing downwind and then, once pointing towards the wind, race to the windward side of the towing boat, sometimes even surging ahead.
That doesn’t describe the multiple times I’ve towed into and across the wind while on actual trips on Canadian lakes.
I didn’t see where avantsmith specified that his daughter’s boat was weather cocking. It might just as well be doing the opposite. While most boats are probably designed to have a slight tendency to weather cock and for good reason, I wouldn’t assume that this is always the case–depending on the angle and strength of the wind.
I’m not familiar with the CD Raven, but I guess it doesn’t come with a skeg. If that is so, then too bad. Adding a rudder would be quite a bother and probably not worth it for the daughter who will probably outgrow the boat pretty soon. As Monkeyhead said, maybe the best alternative is for the daughter to work on her boat handling and paddling skills. Does she know when and how much to feather her paddle? Paddle shifting and edging should be almost an unconscious part of paddling in time.
I had a kayak that would not track straight. I carved a small skeg from a piece of maple and just duct taped it with ‘Gorilla Tape’ to the hull. It stayed in place over a season of frequent use. My intent is to permanently attach it but haven’t done it so far. A skeg makes a world of difference in tracking.
I didn’t see your daughters weight, but the listed weight for the Raven is 125 pounds. Odds are your daughter is OK there. If not, definitely do the water bladder thing to sink it to the right waterline. Put in and inflate float bags in the front and rear bulkheads to keep them from rolling around.
The next question is mentioned above, is it the stern or the bow that is getting blown off course first? Only you can tell that. While boats are generally designed to weathercock rather than leecock, in the right combination of paddler weight and conditions they may leecock. One of my boats needs its stern given extra weight and the other the bow to behave well. Serious PITA when I get that backwards…
If fully loaded, usual recommendation is 40% of weight ahead of the cockpit and 60% behind. I even out that ratio more like 50/50 to get my primary kayaks to behave well. You probably need to experiment with loading and trim.
This is all MUCH more of a problem for light weight paddlers than for the average guy, even with manufacturers designing boats for small paddlers…
I think it matters that your daughter have a good time out there, and struggling too much with keeping a boat straight is not fun. I am not able to recommend a rudder setup to you, not my area. But I suspect if you call a few major CD dealers or the company itself someone will have an answer for you.
Interesting. I checked out the specs:
https://www.cdkayak.com/Kayaks.aspx?id=48
… and it doesn’t look like it has a skeg or rudder. It’s relatively short for going anywhere serious, but even at 12’ it could be a handful for a small young lady.
I think a lot hinges on what sort of tripping you do. You wouldn’t want to have her be reliant on you towing her everywhere, but there’s no reason not to resort to towing up a windy channel to get to a calm sheltered area behind an island.
Skills and strength are of great importance too but will come much less quickly and all of the things that have been mentioned might help you in the meantime.
@Celia said:
I didn’t see your daughters weight, but the listed weight for the Raven is 125 pounds. Odds are your daughter is OK there. If not, definitely do the water bladder thing to sink it to the right waterline. Put in and inflate float bags in the front and rear bulkheads to keep them from rolling around.The next question is mentioned above, is it the stern or the bow that is getting blown off course first? Only you can tell that. While boats are generally designed to weathercock rather than leecock, in the right combination of paddler weight and conditions they may leecock. One of my boats needs its stern given extra weight and the other the bow to behave well. Serious PITA when I get that backwards…
If fully loaded, usual recommendation is 40% of weight ahead of the cockpit and 60% behind. I even out that ratio more like 50/50 to get my primary kayaks to behave well. You probably need to experiment with loading and trim.
This is all MUCH more of a problem for light weight paddlers than for the average guy, even with manufacturers designing boats for small paddlers…
I think it matters that your daughter have a good time out there, and struggling too much with keeping a boat straight is not fun. I am not able to recommend a rudder setup to you, not my area. But I suspect if you call a few major CD dealers or the company itself someone will have an answer for you.
Thank you for all the replies! My daughter weighs 78 pounds… I think it is mostly the stern of the boat swinging out, so to correct that, where would I position more weight?
@Sparky961 said:
Interesting. I checked out the specs:https://www.cdkayak.com/Kayaks.aspx?id=48
… and it doesn’t look like it has a skeg or rudder. It’s relatively short for going anywhere serious, but even at 12’ it could be a handful for a small young lady.
I think a lot hinges on what sort of tripping you do. You wouldn’t want to have her be reliant on you towing her everywhere, but there’s no reason not to resort to towing up a windy channel to get to a calm sheltered area behind an island.
Skills and strength are of great importance too but will come much less quickly and all of the things that have been mentioned might help you in the meantime.
At the moment, we do day trips, and sometimes 3-4 night trips on the lakes. Her skills are coming along, and she has good stamina. We do have a tow rope that we use sometimes. We have a Delta 15S, with a rudder, do you think she could move up to using that, the Raven is a tight squeeze for her anyway, she has grown some since last year and her legs are much longer now…
If your daughter wants to keep the boat for a while and you’re comfortable cutting a couple holes in it (or paying to have someone do it) you can purchase a skeg kit for around $100.
http://topkayaker.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1610
I’m surprised that the Raven is a tight fit for her. I have been searching for one for my Grand-kids. Thinking that it would fit them and be usable up to the 125 lb listed . If in doubt , just go for a day paddle with her in the Delta, then ask her which she prefers. Have her sit in the kayak and take a picture from the side to determine trim, You might have to just move the seat back an inch or so for the Raven to be trim and set the stern in the water. The other option is a little gear in the stern and be a little more choosy on paddle days as far as wind goes.
What Doug Gilliland said. Do that… or don’t go out in the wind.
Skegs and rudders are designed to help cope with difficult wind conditions. I’m sure either would help, but that skeg kit Doug linked is really pretty neat!
Yes, I’ve had this in the back of my mind trying to come up with a non-invasive solution, but I’ve got nothing. I like the idea for the add-on skeg. I have a 17’ boat and a 14.5’ boat, neither of which I’d want to paddle as far as I do without a skeg. Sure, I can paddle without one but it makes the trip a lot more pleasant.
I say try her in your Delta. I’m guessing it’s going to be a bit big for her to maneuver and the wind might push her around even more. But maybe the significant rudder will make all the difference. I still suggest weighing it down some. Those thermoform Deltas are very light and your daughter won’t do much to change that.
Find an area that has some wind exposure and some shelter and go out for a few hours in what you’d consider a strong wind. Play around with different amounts and positions of weight. Try getting her to edge the boat while paddling 90° to the wind (drop the edge that’s up wind) and see whether she can make a difference in one or the other boats by doing this. When I practice paddling without my own skeg, I find that an aggressive edge can be almost as effective, albeit not comfortable to hold for a long distance.
For frame of reference, what areas do you paddle in? How far do you go per day on your multi-day trips - which, I have to say I think is pretty damn cool that you have your 12 year old daughter doing.
One final thought: If it works putting her in the Delta, do your best to prevent her from using the rudder as a crutch. Use it as a tool for preventing weathercocking, but make sure she learns to control the boat with her paddle and body. Too many people use rudder pedals like the steering wheel of a car, and rudders are prone to failure at the most inconvenient time.
Pay particular attention at 1:30
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENfeqyZZlaI
… and 0:55 for this one:
@anavtsmith
If it is the bow holding and the stern swinging then you put more weight in the stern. If she is 40 plus pounds under the listed weight, do the water bladder/float bag thing front and back, just more in the stern. From the profile, it does look to me like it could have a tight bow. But the proof is on the water.
Kayak Sport used to have an add-on no holes needed rudder, but it appears not now. I suggest you get the waterline and trim correct first with weight, Water and a couple of float bags are relatively cheap and easy to adjust until you get it right. Then make a decision about a rudder and holes in the boat.