Here we go again-1st capsize!

"if it breaks"
That stuff is very pretty prone to breaking, crushing, and can eventually take on water. It’s not really and exterior product and is often installed with another vapor barrier - and behind the sheathing.



Being cheap and easy to replace might balance the downside for some. Like the old Doritos ad: “Crunch all you want - we’ll make more!”



The Northwater foam float I had uses a block of white (maybe “ethafoam”?) large cell cross linked stuff like is used as support blocks for shipping large electronics and other stuff needing better than Styrofoam protection. It’s quite a bit more durable. You can bend it, whack it stand on it…



On a homemade float - I’d probably use even more flexible and durable Minicel.

greyak
The gear you have is going to work just fine! I saw the way that your skirt fit on my boat and was envious of the smooth and tight fit. I am really loking forward to getting it.

As to whether it will hold me in the boat, I doubt it and not sure if I should depend on a skirt for this anyway.(It will do much better than mine though) .Honestly, I was not set in as well as I should have been. This is part of what i meant about me not paying attention…I should have been really finely (and firmly) tuned with the boat and ready to go over when and if it was going to happen. I should have jammed my thighs and knees up and locked myself in as I was going over…and then bent forward letting my body rise up and rolled up…sounds perfect now doesn’t it? I have replayed this in my mind over and over since then to prepare for the next time.



Paul

foam floats
Just another caution on the foam float. I have the new Northwave model (double sided entry) and it doesn’t provide enough floation in every condition, especially with feathered paddles. In a recent skills practice session, I completely buried the float underwater and turned my kayak 90 degrees. I weigh 165lbs unloaded with gear, but had a more extreme feather on my paddle at the time. The outboard paddle edge was close to perpendicular and when I threw my leg over it (admitedly a little farther out than the videos suggest) it didn’t supply the support a double inflated bad does.

It eventually worked, but the setup is more critical and one’s technique needs to be better.

I’m going back to keep an inflatable on board.

Joe

paddle float and re-enter and roll
a rolled up paddle float takes up no room to speak of…just has to be accessible. What I really need to do is use it as a last resort instead of a second resort. I should have done a bow lift and then a re-enter and roll. I shouldn’t have gone directly to the paddle float. My only excuse has to be the fact that I had practiced the paddle float rescue extensively and have just recently gotten my roll down. A prefect example of why practice practice and more practice ensures that you perform what you practiced in a real life situation. I am obvioulsy more comfortable with a paddle float rescue. That will change very shortly I assure you.



Having a foam paddle float is in my opinion more beneficial for colder waters. But again, a good roll will fix most problems.



so my goals this week are:



re-enter and seal neoprene skirt and then roll up. (where do I put the paddle?) This will keep the least amount of water in the boat after a bow lift…gonna have to time how long I can stay under and then maybe practice the Petrussen manouver?



Paul.

Lighter weight floats
The downside to the insulation idea, and some others that are smaller than the big red Northwater job, is that they provide less floatation. It does have to be taken into account, and depending on the boat and paddler combination may not always be a great idea. At my weight, with a very low-decked boat like the Explorer LV, I can get away with a good bit less floatation. Also, as you get to the point where you can come up into something like a static brace pretty much at will, the need for a ton of floatation is reduced.



Breakage would be a possible issue, so if using a home-made job keeping a backup inflatable float around behind the seat is probably a good idea. But we paddle a good bunch in northeastern waters, and the time to hang out in the water and blow that thing up is an issue.

"so my goals this week are:"
You’re making me feel lazy! OK, I am lazy - and this time of year I usually slack off all things paddling a bit which makes it worse. Fall I typically get back to trying more things and paddling more regularly (but still only about once a week).



I need to practice re-entry and roll too, with whatever variations come to mind. I have been neglecting this as it requires coming out of the boat in the first place - and I haven’t been pushing things to where that’s happened since my roll (at least play around roll) is pretty much a given. It used to be one or two attempts and - Out! Then onside got reliable and blown offsides just meant switching sides. Haven’t bailed but a couple times since - mostly due to rushing or goofing around and trying new things. Closest near bail lately was a spaz attack where I blew offside twice (didn’t sneak air in between) - switched to onside - was now low on air and rushing and blew that (At which point I’m thinking “What the …!”) and then just stopped, regrouped and easily rolled up. May have been the first time I totally blocked out the instinct to bail, put that thought aside, and took the smart route. Actually had my hand on the loop - let it go, and went back to the roll. Funny how that “Punch out!” thought gets so loud in my head even though I know rolling is faster easier and gets me air sooner. Can always bail - or go toa scull (don’t seem to think in terms of variation once air is low though…). Practice, practice - I’ll never have enough.



What to do with paddle during R&R? Should be able to keep it in one hand. Pretty much a reverse of a controlled wet exit as far as controlling boat and blade.



I can easily stow and switch paddles in situations like that too - another advantage of GPs narrow blades - but no reason you can’t rig for this with whatever paddle. For GP I added a short length of bungee (or you can use cord - lots of variations that work) with beads running from side to side at either end, forward and aft of hatches, to slip the end under.



A decent leash is another option - but requires that you pay attention to where the leashed paddle is while doing the rescues and that it be rigged for minimum entanglement potential (shorter coiled leashes good for this).



For reentry & roll you could probably jam a blade under your deck bungees (fore or aft) until you get situated in the cockpit, then grab and go. Just hope no waves take a liking to it in between…



Bow lift/dump may prove to be wasted effort before R&R as you will get water back in the cockpit anyway. If you have good breath holding - and can stay centered under the boat getting in - MAYBE the PFD buoyancy would lift the boat a bit and get a more water out before affixing the skirt - but a flatwater trick at best I think. On flatwater - I’ll just lift/dump/flip what I can and do a scramble/belly flop/sidesaddle recovery with GP as an outrigger - (modified P-float rescue with no float and no need to climb all the way out on the rear deck. Different boats require some variation).



In rougher conditions (relatively) - any out of cockpit rescue (p-float, R&R, etc.) - will get you some water in the cockpit while entering - either from it coming in with you while over and reentering - or a wave sloshing in after you’re up. Skirt on would just prevent it being both.



Flooded cockpit rolling and paddling’s another good thing to practice.

Hanging onto the paddle
while doing a re-entry and roll. So far I’ve been able to just keep it in one hand and grab the edge of the combing with that hand (I have to grab both side to get anchored in) while still maintaining a hold on the paddle shaft. I have pretty small hands too, and a paddle with floatation built in, so you should be able to do the same.



The nasty part is having enough presence of mind after all of that to check your blade angle if you, like me, don’t open your eyes under water. Then it takes a moment to feel down the shaft to confirm angle and distance from your hand. That leaves me tense and blowing the roll one out of two times. In a real emergency I’d add the paddle float just to make sure I got up ASAP, at least right now.

Minicell Foam Float
was what I made for to custom fit my GP. Of course, it provided the merest of floatation. Climbing on the back deck with it requires better balance. Better still to use it for re-entry and roll.



Actually, I don’t even bother carrying it anymore. There is no realistic exit option for the skin boat and hoping to get back in alone in conditions. Roll or die.



sing

I open my eyes
under water with no problem. I think that I will get a paddle leash at least until I feel comfortable that I have a chance of hanging on to everything while doing a reentry and roll. Otherwise, the under deck bag is a good place for the spare paddle float, and the pump can fit on top of it between the hull and the bag. I will also get a bailer and put it somewheres where I can get to it…sometimes that might just be easier than the pump.



Paul

And another thing. GP’s
Seems to me that having a Greenland paddle would make things infinitely more practical in this environment. Not only for rolling back up, but for sculling and bracing. being able to use the whole length of the paddle for flotation while sculling or rolling and bracing just plain makes sense. (this is assuming of course that I manage to hang on to it…I don’t think they make paddle leashes for GP’s :slight_smile:



You all kind knew I would work the GP angle here didn’t ya? Now if it only works on my wife…



Paul

very good point
but with luck I won’t have that issue anymore with the neoprene skirt.

Frankly, I was just trying to get in the boat without capsizing it again while leaning on the shaft and float. Iagree wholeheartedly that I have to get the roll down so that it is automatic. Honestly, i would just like to go over about 15 times on the way in and just roll back up for fun!!!



ok…so maybe I’m a little bent…



:slight_smile:





Paul

Leashes will work on GPs
Most OK, some better than others though. Some paddle floats can pose issues though.



The coiled North Water leash I have is good - for several reasons - but I must admit I rarely use it paddling (pretty much like it’s not there when I do -and it has other uses…).



The “paddle angle” thing Celia mentioned is non existent with GP (but not a huge thing with EP either for most folks - you don’t have to side your hand far to check).


Either, Or…
To get the full benefit of the extended GP, you have to be able to anticipate what’s happening, stay calm and extend the paddle…



It a Euro, the surface is all on the end. You simply slap it down quick when as you need it.



Both require practice. Both are as effective (or not) and the person using it. GP is not a “magic bullet” in rough water. You still need practice either way. Keep playing, with either types, and you’ll find it’s experience and not the paddle that makes the most difference.



sing

well said.
going over what happened in my mind, I thought of two things that could have made it a bit easier…the first is a tighter neoprene spray skirt, and the second a GP. Neither one would substitute in any way for practice but either or both could have facillitated somewhat either an initial roll or a re-enter and roll. Of course I could be completely wrong with no real way of finding out without practicing a lot more.

As I said my goals this week are to reenter and try to affix the spray skirt under water and then roll up. Have been timing holding my breath and putting on the nylon spray skirt…should have the neoprene one this afternoon. It really isn’t that long and I suspect most of it is just realizing tht you really do have plenty of time before you really need air,… keep the urgency level down, (notice I do not say panic) and get er done! (Besides, I have the tempest 170 which is really easy to roll up…must be as I can do it)



Nobody has told me that this can’t be done and I see no reason why it can’t be as it was very difficult to try a bow lift in the surf. No matter what I tried I still ended up with a bunch of water in the boat and the same would apply if I rolled up without the skirt (something I can do but am extremely unstable afterwards)



If I fail, at least I will have a lot more underwater time which is always a good thing in my opinion.





Paul

Again, Beg To Differ…
a neoprene skirt will minimimize implosions from breaking waves. It ain’t going to do anything for your roll. If you fell out of your boat while upside down, it’s because you didn’t wedge yourself in with your thighs/knees. If you didn’t do this, you would not likely roll back anyway even with a neo skirt.



GP facilitating the roll? Maybe. I still think it’s calmness and technique. I love my GP for touring and don’t use anything else in a long boat. But, truthfully, I learned to roll with a Euro. I practiced rolling in a surf long before I picked up a GP.



Trying to put the skirt on while underwater, in the surf zone, takes calmness and practice. You’ll take on water anyway (I can do the skirt put while under), though less than when you roll up without a skirt. Better to apply the practice and calmness to learning the roll and bombproofing it. Once you come out of the boat, all other options suck compared to just being able to stay calm and rolling up consistently.



sing

thoughts on reenter and roll…
Personally I found that affixing the skirt under water and then rolling up resulted in the same amount of water ending up in the cockpit. Please post your experiences with this but I found that the additional time and effort weren’t worth it for the most part. Also be extremely careful that you do not tuck the grabloop in if you do practice this. The first thing I would do with a new neoprene skirt is to go to a friendly bay with a friend/spotter and practice wet exits. Can you take it off with one hand (both hands)? Can you take it off with the grabloop tucked in? You definitely want to know your skirt before doing anything that might put you in a difficult situation.

you both are right of course.

– Last Updated: Aug-30-05 9:28 AM EST –

I guess I wasn't explaining it well. No question about not being wedged in properly. (I mentioned this in the first post) and I am not sure whether I will save some water from getting in the boat by putting the skirt on first. Completely agree that calmness under the water is the key to everything.
I don't have a GP and am not suggesting that I would not have had the issues I did with it..Just a thought that I could have used the additional bouyancy perhaps? I don't know. The trick is to get that bombproof roll on either side comfortably so that a wet exit really is the last resort.


...gonna change my name to "grasshopper" while I am learning this stuff.

Paul

Hey Sing
Saw a shot of your skin on frame boat but don’t remember where I saw it…do you have a photo site up with your boats? I also read that you have a sewing machine…any photo stories?



Paul

In My Profile
is a link to my webshot album. Very little on the long boats and white water boats hiding in my back yard and basement. Mostly surf oriented stuff (where my passion is right now).



Stories – well, yeah, I have gotten trashed pretty big time in some big wave days after either getting sucked out of the boat or having my paddle stripped, couple of times alone. Went through a strainer on a class IV. That was exciting since I survived it. Otherwise, I guess it would have sucked for a brief couple of minutes.



Never been trashed, or even come close, while touring. I have gone over on windy/choppy days. Being able to just roll back up pretty much made these non-events.



sing

half in and out
I went to the local lake yesterday and tried various positions where I was half in and out of the boat, was not set in properly, etc so that I could become more familiar with the feelings and the actions I needed to take prior to rolling up. Primarily it involves setting yourself back into the boat a bit better. Another thing I noticed is that it helps tremendously to cinch up the seat on the tempest causing my thighs to just lightly touch the thigh pads but allows me to flex and lock myself in. (the jury is still out if this will be comfortable for a long haul tour but for now it doesn’t seem to bind or hurt.

I definitely will need a paddle leash for the ocean until I get more adept though.

Also. I tried out the new neoprene skirt I got from Greyak. Was pleasantly surprised at how tight it fit but also how relatively easy it was to disengage.



Paul