Hey guys. It's OK to buy a rec kayak

Mathew, my Tarpon is a 160 which is no longer made. I like it for it’s speed and I’m a big guy so a long boat suites me.
The seat is very comfortable. I have paddled it all day
and been fine.
Any Tarpon should be fine in a bay but a paddler needs to know his limitations. I’ve had the 160 out in confused water , 3’ swells, and it was ok
but a challenge for me.

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Jyak, I don’t care for sit on tops myself for several reasons, including that I have a short upper body and arms and the paddle reach over their wider beam inhibits my usual form. And I am spoiled by the speed and handling of my sit inside kayaks. Often SOTs are the only option for rentals at vacation destinations or booked tours so I have used them (though with my portable folding kayaks I can bring my own boat when I travel now.)

But a major reason I have multiple boats is that I enjoy introducing friends and strangers to paddling and want to be able to outfit them. So when I came upon a deal on a lightweight inflatable sit on top this summer that is convertible from solo to tandem I added it to the fleet. I have friends and kin who are older or have mobility issues or discomfort with using a sit inside kayak as well as some who would like to take a younger child or dog along on our gentler outings.

And looking forward to my own aging, I figured it might be prudent to have such a craft for my own use as I progress towards decrepitude and find it harder to stuff myself inside a cockpit.

Willowleaf, agree. I started with fishing and found exploration more appealing. I’m amazed at the variety of boats and value any boat that work. The biggest shortcoming most rec boat is the design compromises that result in a boat that’s typically grossly overloaded, unbalance, hard to paddle due to the width, and slow. If the user thinks its typical of all kayaks, it could stifle interest. Just as quickly as a clunky, poorly fitted bike, with bad geometry. Many paddlers get what they’re looking for, whether in terms of investment, aesthetic, or simple no frill pleasure, and stick with a boat.

Fortunately. I tried a 120 and 140 at a paddle event and picked the 14 ft because it handled open water better. I was impressed by the efficiency. What I like about the entire WS series is the incredible stability. From that platform, a paddler can learn and grow, and hopefully seek a more efficient, specialized kayak.

I regretably have outgrown the Tsunami. Nobody has to tell be I know it. Regretable because I can tell you the places I’ve been, the sometimes agonizing minutes spent in the seat, the miles, top speeds, how long it takes to get to places, as we’ll as the notes on what I’ve seen. I’m not sure if I’ll actually switch boats as long as the hull has rigidity. I know how to make up for its deficiencies. Problem is that I have more deficiencies than the boat. I’ll havevto switch up eventually to stay ahead of the curve.

Jyak, I don’t really agree with you that “incredibly stable” kayaks allow paddlers to “learn and grow”. Returning to the bicycle analogy, you can’t and won’t become an adept cyclist as long as you are riding a tricycle or with training wheels, where you are sitting upright and steering by pivoting the handlebars. Riding a two wheeled bike means being conscious of your center of gravity and the effect of inertia on speed and balance and building the instinctive use of your body to countersteer.

Too much “comfortable” primary stability in boats is both a crutch for new paddlers and eventually an impediment to progressing to skill development. You can’t turn a trike or bike with training wheels by leaning and you can’t learn to control a boat on the water with your body if it floats like an aircraft carrier.

Unfortunately, there are people who react with such panic to what seems like dangerous “instability” and “tippiness” when they first sit in higher performance kayak hulls that they are unable to relax and learn to trust and appreciate the secondary stabilty. You can see that in some user boat reviews, even in this site, where someone new to more vee shaped hulls post a highly negative and critical slam of a kayak model that most of us with experience consider quite stable and forgiving. Having been accustomed to flat bottomed recreational kayaks or those made to be wide fising platforms, they are freaked out by a boat that feels “wobbly” at rest and fear it will capsize easily. And if they are tense in the boat the chance that they will overreact by shifting their center of gravity too abruptly does contribute to capsizes.

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I’m not sure how we got back here.
First, it seems to me that if I said the sky was blue, you’d disagree with me.
But let’s go back to the bike analogy. I don’t know if you’ve ever ridden a bike like they ride in the Tour de France, but I wouldn’t recommend that someone learn how to ride on one. A beginner would find them very twitchy. Yes, once you advance you might not want a super stable bike. You want the frisky thoroughbred.
Second, you can’t seem to understand that not everyone has the same ambitions that you do. They may be perfectly happy spending the rest of their lives paddling small lakes while fishing and taking pretty pictures. Not everyone has a goal of paddling ocean surf. For these people a recreational kayak is best. I take a lot of pictures, using an SLR, when I’m on a river trip, and it’s nice have a big cockpit so I can have my camera right under my legs and easy to get to.

Wasn’t talking to you. Everything is not all about you.

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Your replies are great. You always answer so much more than originally ask from a perspective that’s hard to dispute; several other members also have that talent. Your examples are perfectly true.

This morning, I coincidentally explained how a bike isn’t turning by spinning the handle bars in a different direction. Inertia/momentum keeps you on a straight path, unless you first lean the bike - the bars only help balance through the lean. At the same time, the characteristics that make a good bush plane are not designed into a fighter plane. Both can manuever, but they do it in different ways.

I swore off kayaks after my WW experience. Locked in a boat is good for swirling through the rapids, but a fat, slow, overloaded boat gave me the confidence to change from a canoe to a kayak. All behavior serves an adaptive function - whether it’s beneficial or dysfunctional depends on the consequences (will a person with agoraphobia fear leaving the house more than burning alive in a house fire).

Only after I felt safe could I leave protected waters. Once I ventured further, that fear made me seek better boats. I talked with another kayaker about the merits of each boat. 145 Tsunami vs. his 111 lb SOT fishing boats. He started in a sea kayak, but gave it up for his platform- he can stand it like hes on the deck of an aircraft carrier - 'nuff said. You Tube posted of a guy floating in a sea kayak. He shows how to stand and step out of the boat onto a skinny narrow rock, then back in. LA! Just like that. I’d try it. But I need to figure out how he was able to stand so steadily on that skinny rock. For other tricks. See the perfect Pungo roll.

Without telling me to do anything, you’ve convinced me to try many things, even to consider rolling, despite a bad shoulder. I’m still wrestling with putting put my face in the Chesapeake Bay (water in my nose and ears - infections). People swim in it, but not me. I still favor primary and secondary stability over all other factors. At some point, I plan to ask about assessing primary/secondary. We all have different skill sets, and I can’t balance like a tight rope walker; it’s not in the genes. I have an interesting anecdote about snakes on the floor, but only If a reader has the curiosity to ask.

I liked your pre-edit reply, hehe. :smiling_imp: And I agree with @Jyak - you are incredibly helpful. I love your posts.

I bet you can balance on a rock

German long distance paddler and rolling expert
split on paddle 2
Freya Hoffmeister can do a headstand in a kayak (I can’t find photos I used to have of her with her legs straight up). Of course she’s a former champion gymnast and a total amazon who has circumnavigated Australia, Iceland and South America by kayak and is currently circling North America along the Alaskan coast.

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Big deal. Even I can do that. You just need a fat head.

Pffft. I could do this too if my living room wall was behind me

Feya headstand

Balance can be improved through practice, by doing certain exercises, just the way strength and stamina can be. And I think it’s really worth the effort, not just for kayaking, but also to stay healthy and ward off falls as we age. Try yoga!

Regarding putting your head in the Chesapeake, get some good ear and nose plugs, and then capsize in a controlled calm area. No reason to challenge yourself further with worries about what’s in the water.

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Fathead Newman played a saxophone.
Put his noggin in the bell to reed he had lost tone.
Ray sang to David, “Come rain or come shine,
take it from the top! Key’s ta sit ya fat behind!”

So you might ask, “So what’s this got to do,
with starin’ in the bilges to take a stand for your canoe?”
Well I might conjecture Freya’s lookin’ for the Ray,
to stand her world on end and put stability in play.
(Just Another Nervous Rec the Supertramp would say)

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Doggy Paddler, I use the “water in my nose” as a catchphrase. There are dirtier waterways. One tributary i avoid is Back River, the local sewage treatment site. It’s cleaner now; waterfroj owners swim in it.

The region has a website posted by a thoughtful member. See it @ Chesapeake Bay Vibrio Condition. Infections are rare, but all you need is a cut. It can splash on me or wash over me, but I don’t immerse in it.

Mother’s day of 2018, a pulled shoulder was recovering. Tests on Wednesday found nothing. Saturday the arm was bloated and hot. The doctor drew a vial of skimmed milk out of the joint. Sepsis from some cut. PIC tube for 5 week with double dose super anti biotic cocktail. No exercise for 6 weeks. Then stretches. Atrophe. 9 months of physical therapy. Just got back in a boat the end of June.

A couple quick points.
If you buy a rec kayak, you aren’t married to it. It’s not till death do you part. Paddle it one summer, then, if and only if you aren’t happy with it, move up.
Not all rec boats are the same, just like all sedans aren’t the same. The better rec kayaks, like the Pungo and Loon, are really nice boats with a lot of features. One of the reasons I got the Pungo was the great reviews it got. Like this one.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=wilderness+systems+pungo+120+video+review&qpvt=wilderness+systems+pungo+120+video+review&view=detail&mid=B0FFB18E0F9C3535F15BB0FFB18E0F9C3535F15B&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dwilderness%2Bsystems%2Bpungo%2B120%2Bvideo%2Breview%26qpvt%3Dwilderness%2Bsystems%2Bpungo%2B120%2Bvideo%2Breview%26FORM%3DVDRE
If you don’t think a rec kayak is right for you, that’s fine, but I don’t understand why some can’t accept that a rec kayak is right for others. People like their recreational kayaks. Get over it.

More on the bike analogy.
If I met an adult man that wanted to learn to ride a bike, I would advise him to get a one speed, balloon tired bike and adjust the seat so he can easily touch the ground with both feet while seated.
Once he got comfortable with that, raise the seat to it’s correct height.
Once he felt comfortable with that, I’d suggest getting an MTB with platform pedals.
I’d only recommend getting clipless pedals after he felt really confident on that bike.
Then and only then, he might consider buying a road bike or gravel bike.
You have to learn to walk before you run and some people just prefer to walk.

It sounds like you are to the point after 3 months of discussion and buying boats that was my advice to you after your first post.

I suggested there was nothing wrong with buying a good quality rec-kayak for 500 bucks that was available during the pandemic add 15 bucks to help with the floatation if you wanted. Something that was light enough and small enough to put on your car top with your current health conditions. I told you it won’t be the fastest and won’t be the slowest it will track ok and be stable. It will get you on the water and working on your skills again and next spring if you want more you could sell it for 300 bucks in a couple days and have had a summers worth of fun for 200 bucks.

I know this because it is exactly what I did this spring and summer. The only difference is I like it enough I have no plan to sell it and move up. :canoe:

I like your bike analogy, but it is missing one point that ties directly to the points that have been made. The hypothetical new biker should NOT take that bike down any steep mountain switchbacks. Should probably not load it down for touring. Should stay out of traffic. Probably wouldn’t want to race it. Must wear a helmet (properly buckled). Must follow all traffic laws and observe all safety procedures. Once he has the skills, he will want something better if he wants to ride anywhere other than around his block. Which is definitely his choice.

I may have missed some posts, but I have not seen ANY that say rec boats are bad. They said rec boats are not safe for certain situations. SOME rec boats ARE bad, and one should choose carefully. I have a very nice rec boat (Eddyline Skylark), but I do know better than to take it out on big water, in bad weather, etc. After paddling a Pungo (yes, I said Pungo) for a while, my top priority for my new yak was 2 bulkheads. I only swamped it once, and in a safe situation, but I didn’t need to learn that lesson twice. The Pungo is fine for what it is. It is not fine for everything.

I am actually doing just what you recommend in your analogy. Started with a beat up old Pungo, moved up to the Skylark (for slow rivers and smaller lakes), and plan to move up to something like a Sitka next year, for exploring the Lake Superior shores. Some day I plan to have a ~17 footer. My 85 yo Dad has a 1997 Current Designs Solstice ST that he rarely uses, and says he might give to me, but I don’t want to rush him, so I’ll either wait until he’s done with it or get something else. I’m not there yet.

My 2¢. The arguing for the sake of arguing is getting old. Sorry, that’s just how I feel about it.

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My canoe.

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