Hey guys. It's OK to buy a rec kayak

[bud16415]

Great post. I would have loved the guy in the video to flip them all as well.

Even the well respected name brands like Old Town can use some help on their lower end models that are still not cheap. Some of their rec-kayaks have two “sealed” compartments but there is room for improvement with their bulkheads and also hatches and locks. Some models they count on the flotation of the hull plastic and some like the one we got have just flotation in the stern some none at all. They have a foam block in the bow that my testing didn’t displace enough water to my liking. I added a heavy duty play ball to the nose and a yoga ball under the deck total cost under 20 bucks and it now floats upside down like a cork.

The cheap boats have two problems one is they sink and the second is they are overrated for upright floatation. Some of the OT boats claim 350# and I think they are pretty accurate. My OT canoe claims 900# I think and it would maybe do it I’m never going to find out, but I think it would ride ok with 500- 600# and I doubt I will ever test that as well. I see these cheap rec-kayaks claiming 200# and riding not so well with someone 170# in them. So IMO they all have different safety factors.

I added flotation to the canoe and it will never see white water with me in it. I did it to be able to keep it up be able to right it bale it and recover. Or get it to shore and do it.

I mentioned two differences between cheap rec-kayaks and the better ones (floatation & capacity) and in thinking about our outing the other day with 9 others some in cheap models I think there is a third. The cheaper models along with trying hard to claim they can carry more weight also had the flatter hulls with the greatest primary stability and I have to assume the least secondary. I didn’t really notice it until a couple younger were strapping their boats to the rail on their car right side up and they sat as flat as a pancake. We haul ours upside down as the bottom wants to rock around if it wasn’t in a cradle that we don’t have.

Again all great point and a nice post.

[Jyak]

Bud16415, read your post and am intrigued by the similarities, except you have more skill set in other areas. I like long posts, so if you write them, I’ll read them. I didn’t read related posts leading to this, so forgive me for any lack of context. I respect your views because you earned them. I just wanted to share my experiences based on your comments, if you don’t mind.

I have a canoe background. WW kayak was several minutes asking fish for help before calling kayaking balderdash for crazy people who don’t mind water up the nose. In fact, Dick,'s had a try out day with a portable pool . I bought two canoes, a wide fishing canoe and a16 ft Royalex. Penobscot? I saw kids paddling a 9 ft Perception. Tried it, liked it, bought it as an solo for odd number parties. Don’t like three in a boat, and prefer to paddle alone with a passenger to keep the bow down, correcting each stroke with a slight rudder correction before recovering.

In short time, I had three kayaks fitted for fishing, but the fish apparently know and avoid me. I started exploring instead, and have spent the later years exploring the entire upper Chesapeake. Very few people do that, not because they can’t, but because they don’t want to. Can’t blame them. I upgraded slowly into touring boats. My concern was stability. If you ask any boat owner if their boat is stable, they typically say yes, or they wouldn’t paddle it. Some forum members have the balance of a ballet dancer, and they don’t know everybody doesn’t that skill. I found a boat that stays upright and gives me incredible confidence. I spend 15 minutes prior to launch assessing conditions before deciding a course. I wear a vest and can’t roll a lick. Can’t do it Amigo, just like a cow can’t walk backwards down the stairs - isn’t in its genes. I got a gimp shoulder. Fact is, my boat is the last boat in its class I’d want in rolling practice, but it do stays upright. Do you need to roll? If a 22 ft, 50 horse power boat rolls, who ya gonna call - USCG. VHF regularly has requests for assistance with power boats filling with water. I heard one kayak assist. Deaths usually happen from immersion or no vest. [I’m familiar with immersion times]. If I fall off my sofa and get beer in my nose I call an ambulance. I bet somebody reports me to the FBI for that. I own it, so go ahead and blast, if it help a new boater.

I met two guys on the bike trai, one was badgering the other, 78 yrs old and he still runs marathons. Why doesn’t he act his age. I use a grocery cart for a walker in the store. I just got off the couch the last week of June. My first trip I wanted to cry, wth a 1.9 mph avg for 8 miles. I did 20 miles 5 trips later, but it took 7 1/2 hours. Next trip will be another 16.5 mile, but the trio after that will be across the bay again.

When I got in the boat first time. I was scared. Not of the balance, but my knees and shoulder didn’t want to do what I asked of them. Twelve trips later it’s almost like old times and I’m hitting max speed bursts of 6 mph again. I can paddle the canoe, but only If my right hand is on the handle. I just like the speed of a kayak, because I can go further and still get out of the boat sooner. I hate sitting in a kayak too long, but it’s the canoe that hurts “my” back and knees. You’re lucky you can do it. I’m lucky because my bad joints are limbering and adapting.
My knees are bad. My back is bad. My shoulder became bad, so I tried watching TV, but my body started to atrophy. So risk drowning in the bay or die on my sofa. Keep going my good man and don’t look back. I’m 70 in a month.

By the way. CanoeDog posted a fabulous WW video for ignorant saps like me. It looks like it’s good for any yakin.

[bud16415]

Yes she is 90 now and still keeping her place going with some help. She lives outside of Chapin in a place called TimberLake. Wonderful body of water and I have explored every inch of it on jet ski and pontoon boat. I have even taken the ski quite a way up the river. If I had been into paddle boats then I would have loved fishing not far from shore at her place. The Bomb Island is an interesting story if people don’t know about it.

As a side note about weather and boats on lakes that size they can get really rough fast. I took her and a few others to see friends that live near the dam on the far end of the lake from her and it was a perfect day and weather reports showed nothing. On the return trip in that pontoon boat it started to get bad rain and wind and some nasty whitecaps in the main water. I was trying to navigate in and out staying a little calmer waters and suggested we find a dock and sit it out on someone’s porch and the 80 year old granny wouldn’t have none of that telling me to get them home. We were in no grave danger except maybe someone getting sea sick. So I went to open water and started tacking as the waves broadside in a pontoon are murder so I was cutting into them for a bit and then ride them for a bit. She stood up and told me to quit messing around and set course for her house. I said ok captain and told someone to get a grip on the dog. And started turning to home. Talk about all primary stability that’s what a pontoon is all about and as I turned the first wave lifted the side a little and water came across the boat and she yelled go back to what you were doing. I yelled Aye Aye Captain. Later back home and dried off she came over and said thanks for driving the boat.

I know I wouldn’t have been in a paddle boat that day. The waves were not super high but closely spaced like a washboard. I have seen Lake Erie exactly the same and the reason there are no pontoon boats out there.

I thought about pool noodles and even have some big 5” ones I might find a use for. The peanut yoga balls worked perfect in the canoe I didn’t get to trying noodles. I made an interesting observation with both the round and peanut balls and how they act different than store bought air bags that are a more ridged fabric. Because the balls deform and get harder under pressure they don’t seem to be affected by air and water temp as much in keeping their shape. I put them in and blew them up in the spring when it was cooler and they haven’t changed much all summer. We have a couple we use as yoga balls rolling our backs on and they have been blown up for 10 years in the house and haven’t changed.

I thought long and hard and have several friends that told me to get two SOT kayaks when we first got going. They are a lot easier to find here and mainly are the choice of guys fishing. I found a deal on the canoe and with covid I wasn’t finding anything new and nothing used winter and spring here. I really tried to talk her into a SOT but all her friends have sit inside rec-kayaks so I told her ok but you need a good one and I will be supplementing some floatation to it. Now that her friends have asked and we demonstrated the floatation they are thinking of doing the same. It is hard here because the water is so flat and the inland lakes fairly easy to convince anyone they may someday capsize.

Your suggestion is well taken if I ever feel like playing in Lake Erie it would likely be a SOT. Who knows if one pops up on CL I might just snag it. I see them out there on the lake quite a bit in recent years.

PS my Pink Flamingo stickers arrived yesterday and will go on the canoe today.

[castoff]

If you would like to paddle the Saluda River when visiting then PM me next time. The sailing club I belong to is on the lake south of Chapin. I have sailed and sea kayaked much of the lake. Been out in some rough water too.

[bud16415]

@Jyak

yakin.

Well the canoe didn’t work so well for me when I bought it. was a tandem and a bear to solo no mater what I tried. It almost went on CL and for what I paid for it would have sold in ten minutes. I reworked it not knowing what I was doing and with some help from the folks here and now I love it. Actually my 230cm to 260cm mod to my kayak paddle was maybe one of the biggest improvements to the canoe and it is soon going to 270cm for a try. Although 260cm the standard blade area is ok if I go longer I will trim the area down.

Sounds like we have some of the same aches and pains and hobbies as well as our philosophy on dealing with them. I have 11 bikes in the garage a true sport I love. The last few years my go to bikes have been an 80s mountain bike I turned into a touring bike and my true touring bike that I reworked the drive to have a low 18 gear inch and a tall just under 100 gear inch with a perfect old school half step pattern. Those two if I’m going for a real ride. Then around town I converted another 80s mtn bike to a beach cruiser with big fat whitewalls big saddle and wide bars. Feels like my Schwinn I had as a kid only with the gear I dreamed of in it and half the weight.

Stop moving and you are done for sure is how think about it.

[Luckyday]

Wow this thread is really getting long. I consider myself an experienced paddler. I still get nervous and go in to safety mode in a rough chop.
It’s not the boat it’s the man. One of the first recorded ocean passes was when an inuit washed up on an Irish shore, presumably from Iceland. He was in a rudimental skin-on-frame boat.
A couple crossed the Atlantic in a modified WWII jeep-boat. Twice.
There’s an old saying about sailboats- The boat can handle more than the captain/crew.
And, I appreciate the comic relief. Keep it coming.

[Jyak]

You mean sounds like we have ALL the same aches and pains. It hurts when I do things - so why do things? Because, it hurts when I’m not doing anything. Hey, I can tell you how to go faster - when it hurts, peddle or paddle harder and it’ll be over sooner.

I believe three reasons to join a forum: learn, assist, and share. I joined to help and share, but I’m working overtime to learn and apply. We both have a desire to learn, a commitment to what we learned by trial and error, a love of what we do and a strong resentment to someone telling us what we need. Some members really have a way of presenting new information in a digestible format. Others want to help, because they don’t want another person to go through the trial and error. We’re all here for good reason, I’m glad if somebody reads my drivel. if one person benefits, that’s a plus in my book. I read everything. Even the doggy posts and I don’t have a dog… it shows who that person is and we need to acknowledge that.

We shouldn’t even go out on open water, San Fran Bay, Lake Michigan, orr any White Water. People get trapped in thosee little feeder dams on the Potomas and drown on raft trips. But we still do it. It’s ironic that somebody might do class 4-6 rapids then tell a paddler don’t buy a dangerous rec boat. That’s exaggeration, but true. We bear the consequences of our folly. Not to steal CWDHs moniker.

80s and 90s bikes. Why would you ride them. Because they’re so darn sweet and my tools fit the components. I got more in tools than some people paid for their bike. Go and do what you do. I do like my touring boat. It’s table as a rocking chair.

[MatthewD8]

Hi, I am new to kayaking as well. I used to run and bicycle a good bit while having an itch for kayaking. My knees are getting tired of all that pounding so I decided now is good time to get down to some paddling time. Using this website, Headwaters videos, and big box reviews, I quickly determined I did not need a $2000 open ocean angler special deluxe unlimited flamingo flamed kayak. I also determined a $200-400 plastic buoy from a big box store was not a good use of money. The sweet spot I wanted was looking for well cared for used mid range kayaks for the price of a new box store kayak. With some time spent scouring Facebook’s Marketplace I now have a 2012 Tarpon 120, a 2015 Pescador 12.0 (angler), and a 2016 Pescador 12.0. I paid $400 for each from different purchases. I am happy as I can be in these kayaks for using them as recreational kayaks. To see if I like all day paddles. To see if I like fishing from them. They rock at 3-4 hour paddles on flat rivers. They could probably do some time out in the bay if the weather was calm. I wouldn’t do that in cheap kayak, and I don’t need a $2000 battleship to do those things. Enjoy your rec kayaks!

Go Flamingos!

[Rookie]

Welcome, Matthew. You’re a smart consumer and paddler. Keep on enjoying your kayaks!

[Jyak]

Welcome. Enjoy your boat, but don’t feel that a Deluxe Flamingo rig is out of your reach. I put a cutout of myself on a flamino rig. Visualization is a powerful tool.

[string]

Here is Castoff at the Lake Murray Sailing Club in my Stellar S14S. He had just made some mods so my bum leg would work in it.

[bud16415]

I know there is not an exact number, but if you or anyone could take a guess about how much higher do you sit above water level in a SOT vs a Rec-kayak. I know in a rec-kayak depending on the seat pad you will maybe even be below water level.

My real question is how is the higher CG?

[string]

I’m guessing an inch or so.
I have a very high COG because I’m 6’5" and have wide shoulders.
With the 3 surf skis I’ve paddled, it just took a little seat time to adapt.
In the SOT like the Tarpon in the photo it was just get in and go.
BTW,the Tarpon has an elevated seat pad that does a great job of keeping your butt out of the water if you catch a wave from the side.

[castoff]

In String’s Stellar I am siting at about water level. The photo of String in his Tarpon 16 he is a couple of inches above the water line. it is a very stable kayak. CG is more elevated the in a sit in kayak in most cases I would think.

My wife likes paddling tandem. Here is her hybrid surfski tandem we found used for $800. You can put on a skirt (for nasty weather mostly), but I don’t see the need really. We sit above water level. She thinks it feels more stable than sitting on the seats in our tandem canoe. It was designed for multiday adventure racing in South Africa. Some races are as much as 3000miles.

With camping gear we sit lower.

Have done some fishing from it too. Taking a lunch break on the Saluda River.

Making a car look good.

Unloading on an island to camp.

[bud16415]

Around here there are a lot of SOT and guys buy them for fishing. They want to get out too early in the year and don’t have dry suits don’t care for the low seat even though it’s a bit higher than a rec-kayak so they all do a DIY height base to a seat back stadium type seat or something and then find their CG is too high once they are comfy for a day of sitting so they DIY add on pontoons. As they now have something long and wide and heavy they builda cart to get to the water with. I ask them why don’t you just get a canoe and they tell me no one fishes from canoes anymore.

Thanks for the info.

[bud16415]

For sure there is a difference between seat locations in a tandem SOT like yours and a tandem canoe where its 14’ between the two people. For a short time I had my tandem canoe set up with spacing like a tandem kayak and I will say the person in the bow feels much more stable closer to the center.

The SOT I see around here are much further down the food chain than yours.

Thanks for the info.

[string]

My Tarpon isn’t a tandem. It is stable enough for fishing unless you are catching sail fish. It is also comfortable enough to paddle 20+ miles in. Although I’m not a fisherman, I can’t see the additional need for sponsons or extra floatation
in a decent SOT unless you want to stand and boats are made for that.
They are wide and heavy.
Side note. I’ve paddled the Tarpon at 30-40° and haven’t gotten cold . I wear Chota Mukluks and dry pants and a couple of upper layers.

[MatthewD8]

Must have a picture of that. My photo shop skills are not developed to full Flamingo mastery.

[MatthewD8]

Hey, String. What Tarpon size/year do you have if I may ask? I have a 2012 120 which I am still getting through its (well, my) paces. Of my three SOT’s, my one Tarpon is my favorite. It’s also my wife’s favorite so I use one of the two Pescadors. I’ve only taken the Tarpon out 6 or 7 miles at time so far. Just trying to gauge, reasonably, what the limits are for a 120 without doing modifications to it. I have zero desire to white water or go from lower Alabama to Cuba in it, but have been wondering about light bay chop and all day paddling. Thanks!

[Jyak]

MatthewD8. I got an email flag about the flamingo pictures. I went back to get context about the post and saw a number of posts that I either glossed over or misread. It highlights a point for me that I need to be more careful in reading all posts. It made me realize I have a limited image of what constitutes a SOT and gave me a renewed interest in tandems. A family member contracted polio when young. A tandem would be the perfect opportunity for him to experience kayaking with his wife. I need to pursue that topic in another post.