Hey guys. It's OK to buy a rec kayak

Re skills, since you do not have skills like rolling and related you would not know this. But if someone comes in saying they want to learn those kind of skills, the only useful answer is to tell that they need other than a rec boat. A rec boat does not support that stuff.

Happened fairly recently, a woman came in saying she wanted to head right into rolling and related skills but thought that was going to work w a rec boat. She was redirected to ideas for boats that would support such work. My recall is that she was grateful to have people here head off a mistake.

You are so right. I never roled a boat and don’t have the ability to do the roll with my limited shoulder rotation. I had therapy to relearn the remote. First thing I tell someone about a Tsunami- do not buy if you intend to roll. Look at the space behind the seat. It doesn’t drain and a tub full of water is hard to lift when you’re treading water. And YOUR JACKET IS BLOEING DOWN WIND. So save your paddle, go get the boat or your vest. When somebody goes out with me, I tell them put on the vestbor stay home. “Oh. I can swim!” Ho ho ho! You silly creature. I don’t care if “you” drown. You have to wear that vest to rescue me. HO HO! Only boat I owned that flipped, a 140 Pungo. Four of us in a group, a novice was in flat water and splush. Never hoyd of such a thing. His embarrassment kicked in and he was all bumble legs and arms akimbo. He tried to lift himself up. And kept trying to drag everybody down
I finally told him to sit and enjoy the water. We used standard techniques and two boat straddled to drain. He finally rolled back in.Then for penance. I didn’t pump the water out. He Paddled 3 miles with half a cockpit of water. That was pre-bulkhead. Lot of water fits up there. Ha ha ha!

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SOTconvert, more agreement. I use every boat I have and just gave the Heritage to my nephew for fishing. He started a month ago, in a dolphin or something. He started paddling Lake Redman, in York and asked me to join him. I did once and said. Never new the lake was so small. He sends his GPS tracks anf we talk. He went from 5 to 14 mile trips. We go out 18 Aug to circle Poole Island and he will be in the Bay proper. He’s been in 30 inch waves and I try hard to catch him at times. Had to slow his first 2 mile so he could break in his muscles and warm up. After probably 2 months, maybe more. He drives from west York to paddle the bay in the 145 Tsunami I got and fixed up the neglect issues of the seller. Good hull. He was excited about his paddle upgrade, and how great it is compared to his tomato stake paddle Auqa Manta Ray - Mike! Try this high zoot remnant of a stealth fighter wing. Tried it. Don’t like the Werner Kalliste. I grinned and said lucky you. Thats $350 in beer money we can drink when you thank me for showing you the bay. He loves his Manta and best of all. He picked it himself. Bet he’s using it 5 years from now. Heart of a lion.

But I do know that. Once again you are jumping to conclusions about what I know.
What I’m saying is that if a person doesn’t say they want to learn how to roll, you are doing them a disservice by pressuring them into a touring kayak when a rec kayak is a better fit for them.
Lots of people enjoying canoeing and kayaking without learning how to roll.
I, personally, have no desire. That is one reason I like canoes and kayaks with large cockpit openings. I want to easily come out, if the boat capsizes.
I do want to practice my wet exits. You can do that with a rec kayak, a canoe, or old bathtub.
I also think it’s really rude to tell someone they have poor judgement for buying a rec kayak or telling them the thousand dollar boat, they just bought, is a piece of crap, when what they bought is perfectly in line with it’s stated purpose.

More hyperbole. Please go thru posts and id exactly when someone came here, clearly specified a use compatible w rec boat and only rec boat, and got pushed elsewhere. Names and dates.

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Today in another thread someone asked if they should get a Rec or a Touring/Sea kayak. They want to use it around Long Island. They want to enjoy food and drinks and some fishing bird watching and reading books.

No one asked them if they had sea kayak skills and if not did they plan on learning them. Except me.

The advice was based on where you want to go get a proper skirted touring/sea kayak or get a fishing SOT.

The OP has been around a month read 350 posts and made a couple of his own. The way he was asking the question gave me the feeling he was just starting out with kayaks.

I hope he gets what he needs and learns how to use it he did say he was a good swimmer. That’s something.

They asked about boats. I gave an example of something in the ball park of what they wanted. The thought of their experience level crossed my mind and I decided to not inquire. Too many 9 paragraph answers to questions no one asked. :smiley:

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Kudos, it’s a good thing to ask if he has the skills. They do need to be addressed and learned for any paddling craft.

Starting with a sea kayak is as valid as starting with a rec kayak. The skills are not hard to learn and this place is a good way to get advice on those skills. Sea kayaks are inherently safe boats. The OP said he had rented a Pungo 14 so does have some experience. A sea kayak would be much safer than a rec kayak in some of the waters he wants to paddle. I can’t envision this place not advising him on skills if he went with his touring/sea kayak choice. I frequently see lessons being advised. A Tusnami is kind of a cross between a rec boat and a sea kayak edging toward a sea kayak.

You may not have picked up on what has been said but a sea kayak is safer than a rec kayak. it is easier to self rescue than most rec kayaks. There is much less water in the cockpit after capsize and it is much easier to empty by yourself quickly before self rescuing. If you learn to roll you don’t have to even do that. Have you ever paddled a sea kayak?

Here is a photo taken years ago of my wife on her first paddle in a rented sea kayak. I warned her it might feel tippy before she got in it. Her response when she got in it was “This isn’t tippy. Our canoe is tippy”. We then paddled 3 miles out to an island with beaches on an inlet to the sea. We didn’t go out through any breakers for her first paddle. It was a six mile round trip through marsh and some open bay. She has never tipped over in a sea kayak. Nor is she interested in going out through the breakers.

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I responded to the “rec boat or touring kayak” post asking specifically for the OP’s body metrics and relative fitness. Pointless to even begin making suggestions for models for somebody new to the sport when you don’t know if they are a 5’ 2" 105 pound triathlete or a 6’ 3" 250 pound couch potato.

I did comment on the mention of the Pungo and lauded it for it’s intended purpose, which would not include using it offshore in the Atlantic reaches around Long Island (waters with which I have direct kayaking experience.)

Paddling around Long Island could be in inland ponds and slow rivers or it could be in tidally affected deltas and off shore archipelagos. Again, not enough information. But I don’t think there is any harm in mentioning some factors as to why we might ask for such specificity to prod them for more clarity in what might drive their choices.

But until the OP weighs back in with some better background info there is not much point in pursuing further advice to them.

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SOTconvert. What am I doing? My first sentence was “more agreement” I own that. Are you saying that I don’t know what you’re saying and shouldn’t agree. That’s cool. I don’t have any clue about some thread. I wasn’t born yet. I was telling a story that had nothing to do with members or threads, I think? I threw in the life jacket. Because the guy I work with told his son that he goes out with his kids but doesn’t wear a jacket, so who will save the kids. If you think I was talking about you. I truely am sorry, be sure I gave you a wrong impression. I’m going to read again, but other than “more agreement” it wasn’t about threads. I’ll read the string again if I did. I’m good with what you think, I think and I don’t have a problem with ANY rec boats. It looks like I said I got a lot and loan them out. If I intended to slight rec boats. That ain’t the way I say it. You can look at my posts if you can stand going through them. We’re a big family and it’s a good. The only group that could be offended is WW guys, but hell, they know they’re crazy. The ones I know told me so.

Looked closer… Did I just think SOT was replying to me because it followed my post. If I did. I feel like a putz. Sorry everybody.

Bud16415, I am unclear why this is so complicated. The guy asked between a rec and a sea kayak and named areas that are best for sea kayaks. Per advice from some people here, myself included, who have a sense of what those waters demand the answer was sea kayak. As said above, if he does get into Dutch he will be in a boat that offers considerably more of a safety margin than a rec boat for those conditions.

I expect he will learn like the rest of us have. Despite some experience cited here the basics are not all that tough.

I am also fairly sure that he was also told the rec boat would be fine for some areas LI, just not most of the places he mentioned.

Below is what he asked. He got appropriate answers for the question.

"I’ve wanted to get a sit-in plastic kayak for a long time now, but am stuck on whether I should go with a good recreational kayak (like the WS Pungo 120) or a touring/sea boat. (Opinions on the Tsunami 140?)

Local dealer had a lot of Wilderness Systems, Perception and Old Town.

I plan to use the boat in the waters of Long Island—Nissequogue River, Smithtown Bay, Stony Brook Harbor, Flax Pond, around Long and Short Beach in Smithtown and West Meadow Beach in Setauket."

“Have I ever paddled a sea kayak?” The answer is no I have not. I will likely never try and paddle one. Reason being first my knees are shot from 66 years of abuse working, skiing snow down hill, x-country and water, motorcycles, white water rafting, sports of all kinds and likely poor genetics as joints and connective tissue only last so long. Even a rec-kayak that provides some range of movement is uncomfortable for me after a couple hours. Second I’m great in and under the water but I have no desire to be under a boat connected to it with a spray skirt and learning to roll my way up. 40 years ago I would have been game to try it find an instructor go to a pool and master that skill. Now I’m quite happy in my modified canoe sitting with my butt 8” off the floor and being able to freely move my legs as needed. I’m even starting to paddle a bit from a kneeling position and also played with poling. I know your wife has never tipped in a sea kayak but I would likely at some point. I assume you mean she never tipped during a paddle as she must have flipped during practice rolling. Or do some people not learn to roll and just get free under water by undoing the skirt then empty the boat after reentry.

I don’t doubt a younger more fit version of myself would like being in a sea kayak. Now like the OP of this thread I’m looking for a way to stay active, enjoy nature, not caring if it takes me 4 hours or 7 hours to float and paddle my creek while fishing all the good spots. I have outfitted my canoe with around 16 cubic feet of floatation. I have a way to right the canoe solo and a reentry method that works and two methods of bailing the boat after entry. I also have an easier method that works as an assisted rescue. I would likely lose my lunch and maybe a tackle box and a pole, but that’s about it.

So my theory is like a boy scout be prepared, have some skills, and know my limitations. I find I have all 3 now with a canoe that does 100% of what I need. We often go together and she has a quality rec-kayak with additional floatation added that does everything my canoe does just a little bit better. We both wear good quality well fitting PFDs and we are fair weather boaters.

The premise of this thread is that a rec-kayak and I will add a canoe is ok to buy. Meaning it can 100% meet the needs of some people. In our case with one of each I have to say it does. What does meet our needs mean to me? It means it will do what we want and in a way we feel is also very safe.

@Oldboo there 4 paragraphs. If they are too long just skip reading them.

Here’s my thoughts.
Borodin: Quartet No. 2 in D major for Strings, III. Notturno: Andante - Bing video

Bud16415 - If you have never been in a sea kayak and are operating with the expectation that you would capsize in the first five minutes, and think that only young people could possibly handle one, it might be a plan to avoid making assumptions about how others will handle it. I and my husband started in sea kayaks in our later 40’s, and frankly neither of us ever capsized until we started learning more advanced skills. Up to that point we took advice to make sure we had the right boats and paid attention to rational limits in terms of when and where we paddled. We were all over Muscongus Bay in those boats without any problem.

In fact the nearest we ever got into trouble in Maine was in high end rec boats. Got caught in a surprise squall and felt pretty lucky to make it onto an island for a few hours until the storms finished coming thru. We would have been in deep doo-doo had we capsized. A sea kayak would have handled it MUCH better.

Because of the cost involved for the nicer boats, you would find that a whole bunch of us on this board did not get into a sea kayak until we were a bit older.

What has happened here, and I suspect you have been overly distracted by it, is a lot of posts by just two paddlers who are having far more trouble dealing with the experience or even the idea of a sea kayak than most of us ever had. It happens, but you should not regard it as the most common experience.

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Sorry Bud. My post came off a tad snippy. I spent the majority of the day fighting an uphill battle with my x-wife about college tuition. I guess I was still in defensive mode. What I should have said was along the same line as willowleaf. Wait for a response from the op and then put the feelers out about experience. Unless someone make it obvious they are brand new to the sport I don’t want to assume they don’t already know.

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@Oldboo no problems I’m just grateful for everything I have learned here. Lots of experienced people taking time to try and understand new members need and help them.

@Celia I realize I would likely be able to go out in calmer water in a sea kayak and do ok without taking a bath. Here is how I roll though.

A few years back I was at a relatives home on Lake Murray and she is a 80 year old widowed woman lives on the lake and family and friends come to visit her like a vacation spot. She went out and bought an expensive jet ski for her kids and grand kid and I got her dock set up for it with a lift. I read the manual cover to cover and she asked me if I was going to take the big three seater for a spin. I said sure. put my PFD on and she watched me power it out to the center of her little cove about 100’ I shut it off and dove in the water. I wasn’t about to take that out on the big water on a weekday with hardly any boaters without knowing I could get back on it, or get it back to shore. She stood there and watched me figure out how to pull myself back on and it wasn’t super hard but also wasn’t easy. I went out and took a nice long ride and came back. She said what do I have to tell the kids about the boat. I said make them read the book and connect the key to the PFD have the PFD fully on and the right one for their size. teach them to check the fuel and oil every time and then have them jump in the cove like I did and show you they can get back on before they go out. If it is a mom with a kid or dad with two kids they all need to be able to get on in deep water.

So she made the rules and let me tell you a few people couldn’t get back on and they were not happy.

When we got the boats this spring I wanted to get out sooner than the water was warming. I was 99.9% sure I wouldn’t go swimming but I wasn’t going out till I tested what going out was like how hard it was to right the canoe and swim it in or figure out how to get back in, so I waited.

I see families with rec-kayaks and the dad loads a teen kid in the boat and slides them down the ramp same at take out. I would tell them drag the boat down get in the water and figure out how to get in. There are a couple places around here the state put in handicap launches everyone uses that are like a kayak sliding boards. Others have stabilizing platforms with poles to grab etc. IMO if you need all that you shouldn’t be going out in a big lake with others that needed all that as well.

So if I ever did get in a sea kayak and skirted in the first thing I personally would do is feel what its like roll over. Without the skills to roll I guess I would learn what it is like to wet exit and start over.

But then again it would take a desire for me to be in a sea kayak as opposed to my canoe and right now I feel a canoe/rec-kayak meet my needs fully. I kind of felt that was the gist of this thread.

I don’t care what you paddle or where you go. By the end of the first day (preferably the first hour) in a boat you should have some idea of how to self rescue. Finding the tipping point and dealing with the results in a sheltered/controlled environment is where folks need to start. It’s simple: “What are you going to do if you flip over?”

I just finished volunteering some paddle instruction and we didn’t start in the boat. We swam a little bit (class II ww) then practiced wet exits and then started paddling. This individual had already swam out of a raft on the gauley (but not with me) so I made it a progression and had him swim with a kayak paddle and had him use his body for a ferry angle. My point is that depending on folks comfort and skill level, you can make these skills harder or easier. I didn’t skip the basics- wear a pfd, dress for immersion (temp), and save the partying for off the water. Instead, I stressed these points even if they were already known to the student.

Unfortunately, these basic safety steps are sometimes skipped. As good as the video was (that evaluated different rec boats), I would have liked to have seen the shop owner swamp/flip the rec boats and swim them to shore. He talked about it (he liked the safety of the SOT and hatched boat) and mentioned the importance of a protected environment, and at one point even covered secondary stability. All of that related to safety but actually seeing how the boat moved full of water (for self rescue) would have been just as important as how it paddled or the comfort of the seat.

I suspect there are a lot of folks who have bought their own boats that have just sort of skipped the capsize stuff. If you’ve never tipped over and use that as an endorsement for how well your boat handles or your own capabilities, you are missing a key element, self rescue. Some folks just don’t want to hear that their boat doesn’t float well if it is tipped over. They are not receptive to that message.

I’m the guy that suffers needlessly (wrong boat for the environment) but at least I realize I’m doing something sketchy (think canoes in ww without added floatation or ww boats on ocean bays). I don’t use those experiences as an endorsement for a boat type. I understand there could consequences to this approach, and have thought about plan b if things go wrong. There are risks with this approach. I’ve wrapped enough canoes to know.

So yes, some highly skilled and fit individuals (not me) can take a flamingo through class IV but I’m betting it was a whole lot of work getting that pool toy to go where they wanted it to go and I bet they were prepared to swim or deal with the consequences if it didn’t work out.

Boats that aren’t designed to float when swamped are a pain in the a##. I just don’t want them to be more than that (killers). The rec boat world needs more blow up monkeys inside kayaks. So yes, it’s ok to buy a kayak, even a rec kayak, wear a pfd, add flotation to your boat and practice self rescue. At that point it’s not so much about the boat but about the user and paddling education.

The low $ sit inside recboats are frequently the boats that need more flotation. Perhaps Pelican needs to step up awareness a bit on their cheapest offerings and should stamp on the hull “This boat is not designed to float when tipped over” it could also help reduce their liability. To be fair, I’ve seen some improvements to rec boats when it comes to safety.

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Snorkel

Capsize recovery was the first thing I did in my pelican 100. It led to this. Those who have extensive water experience tend to think along these lines.

Six months latter I was doing wet exits and self rescue by myself in a newly acquired Sea kayak too. These photos my wife took while on a day trip on Lake Hartwell after a failed roll while practicing for fun.

At bow of kayak ready to lift and right letting the majority of water out of the cockpit.

cowboy reentry


settling into the cockpit

Bud I understand your bad knees. My right knee is eligible for replacement, but I haven’t felt the need to do that yet. If you notice the boat with Pat and her dog it is a SOT capable of doing open water with lots of room for moving your legs. Here is String who has to wear a leg brace. He is paddling in the fog across 2 miles of open water on Bulls Bay to Bulls Island. He is paddling a WS Tarpon 16 SOT. If you really have an interest in paddling Lake Erie a SOT like these could be a option.

BTW does your relative live on Lake Murray, SC. That is some of my home waters

.

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