My passion was hiking . I had to replace hiking because of genetic leg issues . Paddling is close and I’m glad it found me.
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I had friends do the same thing. From where did they start? My friends never got that far.
This is a pretty good accounting of the trip. He was a grade ahead of me in school and lived a couple doors down. His name is Craig Latimer. First of a long list of things he did. He is known locally as the Quad Father he started the quad games in Erie.
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I feel so ashamed - I came here seeking advice about a river route I’m researching and found this string of posts that tell me my (and my wife’s) recreational kayaks are dangerous, useless POS’s that don’t belong on any body of water bigger than a kiddie pool. Even most of the ‘defense’ arguments here for the rec boats are apologetic and generalize that the buyers of these crafts are all inexperienced nitwits and so are ‘naturally’ likely to get into trouble. What a bunch of elitist garbage! Someone tell me how my ‘recreational’ kayaks are somehow inferior to those specific to white water creeking or long distance open water trekking. Our boats can do limited versions of either - and everything in between. So what wouldn’t be ‘OK’ about buying a ‘rec kayak’. The premise is laughable.
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Telling us what the boats are and what the river is would me more useful than a simple tirade if you truly want specific opinions or suggestions.
@Unkle Willy I would like to welcome you. When I went to rec boats, I looked hard, because I had been racing kayaks for ten years, I found nothing that appealed to me. I ended up building my own.
The reason I did that was because the companies out there wanted boats that rank beginners could paddle.
That means that their boats have serious shortfalls. They also don’t tell you about them. If you like rec boats and can understand the limitations of them, you are someone I would welcome.
I have met too many people who think a big box boat is good enough for the Gulf of Mexico; they aren’t. Too many people have to get rescued because they didn’t know that the big water they entered at 0800 isn’t the same big water four hours later, or when the tide changes.
I can tell by tour next to the last sentence that you didn’t bother to read anything but the title and that makes me sad because kayaking and canoeing should be a joyful thing, not a tragic thing.
Nitwit paddlers guide.
There are different kinds of nitwits in different kinds of boats. I have been a nitwit. . Being a nitwit is not a good thing although it can be fun until it just isn’t anymore. Here’s what to do to avoid being a nitwit.
1.Wear your pfd. If your pfd is uncomfortable then buy a better pfd, but just wear it.
2. Self rescue in the environment that you’re paddling in, or at the very least, paddle with folks that can effectively assist you.
If you can do those two things then you are definately NOT a nitwit. If you’ve never capsized then you;ve yet to reach your full nitwit potential.
If you’re offended by these comments then take your indignation to your preferred paddling environment and self rescue (roll or swim your boat to shore). If you are unable to self rescue, then there is the possibility that you could become a dead nitwit.
If you are successful at getting yourself and your boat safely to shore, then you have become enlightened and can pontificate about the value of drysuits.
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I am sorry that you hit these threads. Most of which have been started by one person out of everyone here, that one person having been all over the place in talking about what they needed or wanted.
If you are seeking information that might be helpful, it would advance things to talk about what trip and what boats. Your post says your boats can do limited versions of either. What is not known is how much white or large open stuff is involved in your intended trip. For example, the Hudson River goes from being a smaller WW river further to a wide, sea kayak body of water as it goes from the mountains to the sea.
If you truly want suggestions and opinions, I would suggest starting a new topic as this one is all over the place with a lot of posts that are less tan useful.
Agreed. This one needs to be in the dead letter file.
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That’s a great story, although I would think if it happened now it would not have been viewed so positively. He got a commendation from the US House of Representatives?? I mean now he’d probably at the very least get detained by border patrol for making an illegal international border crossing, plus the guy who’s cabin he approached probably would have called the cops…
Uncle Willie, if you are still here, please don’t feel that way, but I understand your ire. I’m an “experienced” open water kayaker, and have been a member for a week. My skill level has improved dramatically, not because someone enhanced my technique, gave me better advice to handle my boat or described how to approach unexpectedly high waves. It’s ironic that most of us started in rec boats, still have rec boats that we use or loan out. When someone is hypercriticsl, it could be because they either spent hard earned money and wasted time in marginal performance boats.
First suggestion is to post nothing. Go through every thread and topic. Don’t look for answers to a question. Get a feel for the activity. There are novice paddlers in rec boats doing incredible things. Ignore the big hype posts if it pleases you, but glean information from them, even if you " . . . learn nothing fromthem except how not to act." Some visitors have no desire to cross the ocean. Some want to know which one has a good coffee cup holder. My neice’s husband has a muscular disability, but he wants to take pictures. This isn’t a research source, it’s a forum for seeking, giving, AND sharing. That means you’re input is valued. If you’re waiting for fair weather, you don’t need the forum, and kayak can be a dangerous place (ask why). You can get suggestions from the sales clerk - if he knows, and if you trust the experience. I have 11 boats and 3 canoes, so I’m looking for another one. I have Wilderness Systems boats from Pungo through ever length of Tsunami. So why get another boat? Because boats are like golf clubs. I went to a high end shop, and saw a 15.5 Delta, thermafoil boat. What are the advantages/disadvantages of thermofoil. The answer is already here. I saw a seat that goes forward and back. I said, “Nice. I can stretch my legs.” I already knew it was to trim the weight distribution to improve boat handles in wind or when loaded. The sales person either figure I was a Rube or didn’t know (probably a Rube). He didn’t offer any correction, so I didn’task any more questions, and here was nobody else to consult.
On the forum. Every question I asked has been answered, but I still sift it. There is so much info I can’t process it all. It’s best to read between the lines in these posts then ask specific questions. I honestly got more focused after seeing the picture gallery, because it put everything in perspective. If you have any question on Wilderness boats, I can answer them. I can also answer questions on the Upper Chesapeake. I’ll keep an eye out for your name.
Uncle Willy, I always re-read posts to make sure I answer the question. You mentioned “most posts . . .” You can ignore those if you wish, but be careful you don’t ignore info to validate a pre-detemined opinion. It may not be fair to be critical of people with big boats just because they’re critical of perfectly fine little boats. As I mentioned earlier, they probably owned one of those boats and may be speaking from actual hour-time experience. I also looked for your question about the river, but couldn’t find it or any other posts under this thread.
You are so right.
True story, a freind of mine was riding a battered old trek 830 mountain bike he had stuck a rock shock on. But in the spirit of its the rider not the bike he was one of those guys that just dominated everyone, (I had an expensive bike, he crushed me every time we rode together) his strength and skill were nuts. (He was also an accomplished dirt racer, just one if those guys the feel comes natural to). So we show up for the Norba championships, he is qualified and entered in the pro expert class. He has his ‘cheap crap bike’ (but make no mistake, he has it tuned like a swiss watch) and is wearing a dingy white tank top and these gross funky jams. A rider right by us (on a likely $3-4k bike and all the best gear) gives him the once over and comments to the other something about how you would think an event like that could be able to keep the rube riders from cluttering it up. Then they both look right at him. He hits them with a big happy grin and asks if either had a cigarrette he could borrow. (Just trolling, this kid is actually an insane health nut) When the race started my buddy exploded off the line and was gone, those two smartasses were middle of the pack with me not even close to my buddy who went on to beat all kinds of factory riders as he took second. I never saw those other two again but I do hope they were at the awards ceremony so they could see who was on the podium.
Moral of the story, no matter what you think, just shut up and be nice. It applies to all kinds if things not just biking and kayaking.
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It seems to me it isn’t the choice of boat that is the problem, it is the inexperienced wanna be paddler that is the problem. Putting that person in a “good” boat will not automatically make him/her a good paddler. Just as a good paddler won’t become a bad one in an inexpensive boat.
For a short time they became sort of local folk heroes to some and others thought them foolhardy daredevils. That was for sure a different time in the world and as I mentioned we took a powerboat across and no one cared. Actually back then people worried more about crossing the state lines when fishing and hunting as we live so close to NY and Ohio.
As a side note the local state representative that gave them the proclamation a year or so later left office in disgrace after some legal problems.
After they made it across and it hit the news all kinds of other people started trying a winter crossing and the coast guard quickly got tired of picking them off the ice and put their foot down stopping it.
As a kid they used to warn us on TV to stay off the dunes with PSA. I would go down and look at the dunes but was so afraid of them from hearing about them I would never set foot on lake ice. Now our harbor was a different story Ice skating and Ice fishing were winter pastimes.
The Unkle Willy reply was the replies I feared when I made my above posts saying insomuch lets give entry boaters the facts, lets explain things like floatation that is in some boats and not others. Lets explain how simple it might be to teach someone how to improve their entry boats floatation, teach them that a bleach bottle with the bottom cut off and ties to the boat with a shoelace may just let them bail their boat. Explain it is possible for some people with practice to do an unassisted reentry and an assisted reentry if very possible to learn. If not reentry a boat that floats along with a good PFD and preplanning a painter line will allow you in warm water to get your boat to shore and drained. With another boat there is additional safety and a person in the water can be brought in along with their boat with floatation.
I was out yesterday on the river with a group of 8 friends. Actually some of them got us into rec-kayaking after they had done it for many years and we just started this year and it was the first time we had all been out together. They showed up with their old worn out PFDs used as seat backs half their boats had zero floatation and some had minimal. The one kid asked why I had a yoga ball in the bow so I showed him at our launch by flipping the kayak over and showing him look it floats upside down. Flipped it back and it was simple to drain the small amount of water out. I didn’t flip my canoe as I had a big cooler in it and didn’t want to get our lunch wet.
What we don’t need to do IMO is call peoples rec-boats bathtubs and pool toys or always make the giant pool toy comparison or find the news story where some knuckle heads floated out to sea on a pool toy. Just try and give your honest assessment case by case boat by boat. Yesterday on the water I saw quite a few bigger guys in rec-boats that were of ok quality but were way overloaded in terms of carry capacity. You can buy rec-kayaks that are rated 350 pounds and others 170 pounds or lighter. Bigger people will fit in the shorter smaller boats and IMO ride dangerously low in the water. A 250 pound guy in a 350 rated boat is not a bad combination.
As a side note the reason I was in the water at put in to demonstrate floatation was with the 7’ rise in river level over the last 2 weeks the ramp we put in on had 6-8” of fine slippery mud on top. Myself and another guy put the women and kids in their boats and slide them down the mud slide. We were the last to go and me the only one with a canoe and I almost made it to the water when the bow got snagged on a limb that was at the base of the ramp I got off the slot we had made and my footing was slipperier than snot on a glass doorknob and down I went into the mud bath. Everyone was in their boats so a wallowed my way to the water and took my early morning bath to alls amusement. 
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Nice post bud16415, my big concern is giving to much info. I actually thought what you mentioned, but deleted it. I overloaded every boat I ever owned, by 30 lbs and by 55 lbs in a Heritsge 9 ft Featberlite, with no flotation. Two miles into 15 mph winds with 18 inch wave, spaced 4 ft peak to peak. I could sell that ride at a bronco bar. An example of stupid things we do and survive. Fortunately. I was savy enough to recover by force of will and stamina. A novice often expects ia condensed version of 20 years of trial and error, after buying15 paddles, 10 boats and from paddling a 3 mile lake to the middle of Lake Michigan. Then the person becomes irritate, because they just want to sit on their duck pond, not mortgage their house for a paddle (some violin bows cost more than the Violin - true). Steve Martin explained it well with a canned phrase. To new paddlers: think before you ask, and say, uh, bit much of a hard chine for my taste. Is there something more like . . . Flamingo form. Many forum members have that model dialed in, but they don’t usually travel in it.
GerryH, agree whole heartdly, but every now and then, you find someone who demonstrated exceptional talent in a rec boat. It’s like saying, “I can fix that hump.” When they say, "What hump?, then it’s time to be direct. Ask if they ever had the desire to skim across the water with the skill of a tight rope walker, salt spray in hair, along side your dolphin playmates. If they say, Nah, they probably like their boat.
The point of my post, in case anyone missed it, is that you aren’t, necessarily, doing someone a favor by talking them out of buying a rec kayak. A rec kayak may be the best choice for them at that point in time. Even if their long term plans would require a more sophisticated boat, maybe starting with a rec boat is the best plan. Once you’ve attained some skills, or your needs have changed, move on to a touring or whitewater kayak. That’s what Craig’s list is for. Now, if they are looking at buying a sub $500 POS, I think it’s OK to try and talk them into something higher quality. That probably will make them happier, but that depends on their budget. A crappy boat may be better than no boat.
And I think we should welcome all paddlers into the fold. I don’t think we should be looking down are noses at anyone, Especially not me 
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