Thank you! Thank you very much!
It depends on how rough someone wants to be on their boat. Seal launches are not unusual in whitewater, those are seriously tough boats. Plus seal launches can be a lot of fun especially if you have a solid roll and can recover from an oops at the last minute.
Less common in a nice fiberglass boat, but there are landings where you may need to get creative and be glad if you have a keel strip. I seal launched more than once in my first plastic sea kayak, when the tide had gotten to a less friendly state upon leaving than it had been when we landed.
Since l got the fiberglass boat l have been willing to work a little harder for a nice launch point.
But note that the gel coat on a glass boat is literally a sacrificial layer. Problem is if you sacrifice enough of it you may have to put it back. So easiest to limit how much,you leave on rocks.
Look up videos of the Tsunami Rangers. These guys were beyond aggressive paddlers, tended to some very dramatic launches into the surf off of California.
As to shallow water, yeah if you misread the water at low tide you can find yourself having to pole or push off a rock or sand. Actually that is harder on the boat than riding a wave that drops you on a section of rocks then goes away. Leaving you sitting out of the water on a rock. In this case you just set up in brace position and wait for the waves to come back. If they dropped you there, they will usually come back and pick you up again.
Celia, agree not parallel, but similar. I’ve done "some"challenging stuff, but learned to know my limitations. I kept downhilling on roads. I could get my mountain bike up to 42 mph and drift to 45 mph on some hills. My brother told me I have an advantage because my watermelon belly was like those bubbles they put on ships. Undeterred, I read and learned to spin 90 rpm. That did the trick and the speedometer hit 50 mph. While in a tight tuck, I started worrying that if I sneezed, they’d have to scrape up enough for my family to fill a shoebox. That ended my downhill. Because even TDF riders were hitting terminal speeds of 60 mph. Now with disc brakes - 70 mph. I don’t need disk brakes no more, that’s not the problem. Getting up to 70 is the problem. Reminds me of "I wasn’t drunk in public. I was drunk in a bar, I became drunk in public after you threw me out into public. I guess that’s why parents try to lead by example.
My family won’t ask my opinion on kayaking. They think I’ll take them out on a trip. They borrow the boats I outgrew. You never go wrong having extra boats. I got lots. Got rid of two and bought two more. All we can do is give sound advice, stress safety, and guide them when asked a question.
Shallow water and rocks is why I stick to rotomolded boats. I spend a lot of time in the rivers in my area. If and when I ever get a thermoformed boat or any other more expensive hull I would use it for bigger, deeper water. I started in rec boats (not $200 ones but higher end) and moved into rec/touring models because they the best fit for what I like to do.
The appeal for cheaper models is high here as well. Some folks just want to float around and don’t care if they are ww qualified. Rec boats have their place and can be great fun so long as they use them for what they are intended.
I am betting most anyone with a 17’ sea kayak would pass on a small creek with 3 to 4 inches of water. That would be using a boat for something it was not made for…lol
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To hit a speed of 45MPH on a 12/52 gear set on a mtn bike with 26” wheels you need a cadence of 149.
What gears are you running? 
I have 2 rec kayaks a Dagger Zydeco & a “crappy” Pelican. The Little Pelican was my first yak which I bought it 2013 and it got me into kayaking. It was inexpensive and others advised me to buy a used Old Town or some big name brand. Finding a used rec Kayak is far easier said than done In my area where the majority of yaks are whitewater. I love the Pelican & it is my guest yak. Also my go to if I want to go for a spontaneous paddle. I am a 73 year old woman and it is very manageable for me.
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Thanks for the answer.
I have the OT guide 147 canoe converted to a solo and she has an OT trip 10 rec-kayak, and it sounds like we paddle in similar places as you. When she used to borrow her friends cheaper pelican rec-kayak it wanted to wander a lot and would only glide straight if under power. Quite paddling it would turn out. My guess is when I was paddling a easy stroke in the canoe she was outputting more effort to keep up and more by a good amount. When we got her the trip 10 this spring the first words out of her mouth were “it goes straight” the second words were “it paddles so easy”. I would say now we match stroke for stroke in effort and maybe I’m the one working a little harder.
Now I’m not in any fast canoe by a long stretch and without a doubt a slow sea kayak would beat us with the paddlers one hand tied behind their back, but that is only a small concern as we are never in a hurry never racing and IMO for the light effort we are both expending we are going as fast as we need. Sure in a head wind we kick it up a notch. The biggest thing we both like now with her new rec-kayak and my canoe balanced properly is it is easy for both of us to go where we want to go, control of both boats is great. That wasn’t true when my canoe was a tandem and her in that cheaper borrowed rec-kayak.
Someone above posted they like to explore small tributaries of bigger creeks and I can relate to this as we have begun doing that also. We went up one a week ago as I heard there was a beaver dam about a mile up stream but was warned it was a little tough going. Some places with fallen trees the openings were only 4’ wide and a few places we were ducking limbs and I wondered if I wasn’t going to be paddling out backwards. I carried a short canoe paddle and switched from my 260cm kayak paddle. My 14’7” was pushing the limits of what we were doing as being too long but her 10’ was perfect for exploring like that. We made it to the dam and didn’t feel like getting over it so we stopped there for that day. The thing is that little creek meandering thru farm land and woods was the most beautiful part of the day trip and just teaming with wildlife and aquatic plants. I doubt 5 people a year try and go up it more than 100’
I could see at some point maybe a rec/touring kayak for her if she and I really got into some camping. But for now a decent quality rec-kayak is OK to buy.
Hi Sooznd Welcome to the forum and great post.
I don’t know too much about the Dagger Zydeco line. Looks like a 9’ and 11’ model and the 11’ has a sealed hatch and bulkhead and that should add some capsize flotation. I doubt the Pelican has much in the way of floatation unless you added some.
The OT trip 10 we got her has a bulkhead and I added a small yoga ball to the bow of hers and it bobs like a cork now when overturned.
I was at Wal-Mart yesterday and they had a big display full of blown up play balls for $1.99 each. I was surprised they looked pretty tough also. Not as heavy gage as a yoga ball but tough enough. I could see letting the air out and blowing it back up in each end of a Pelican or something.
Keep on paddling and don’t be a stranger here. 
Its disheartening to see a member turn to us and become frustrated for not finding a satisfactory answer. Its worse when the person becomes a target of ridicule, real or perceived. It can have the same effect as laughing at a funeral, unless its a reaction to a funny anecdote, or a flamingo walks in. I find that any question consilidates my thoughts on the topic, and the best way to validate a belief is to expose it to scrutiny. How we present the response marks us as an expert or someone who has no clue.
Anonymity protects us, and the only identity we have is the opinion other members have of our user ID. The forum has three types of members: Seekers, Helpers and Sharers. Each question should bring us together by realizing our shared experiences, and it should remind each of personal progress. If a reply wasn’t intended as a slight, an immediate clarification by the offender is the best way to show sincerity in lack of intent. Done!
A forum isn’t a research service where you type: Computer, show me models of kayaks under 14 feet available in red, then expect an answer. If a member wants to avoid vulnerability, approach already armed with information. There’s a good chance someone has asked the same question, so first look at the threads, but what does a visitor think when finding a thread “It’s OK to Buy a Rec Kayak.” Such a thread should at least contain self-reflection. I personally don’t care if you insult me - you don’t know me!
Having said that, the notion that a world class kayaker/canoer is unsuited to answer a question about a recreation boat is at best . . . naive. I’m not trying to be mean, but if you asking a world-class kayaker, “What is a kayak?” The answer will probably be, “Things that grow in a turnip patch.” So think before asking, and rephrase the question if the answer isn’t to your satisfaction, or ask whether any other members have a different view. I’m confident that if you’re maliciously slighted by a member, other members will come to your defense. If that doesn’t happen, self-reflection may help put the interaction in perspective.
If you plan a family outing and seek advice on a safe boat, expect a different response from someone who explores rock gardens on the Pacific Coast, than the answer from a white water paddler. If you walk into a store and find the recommended boat has a roll bar and a shoulder harness, as well as a free helmet, you may be suprised by the handling. If you enjoy gardens, first look up “Rock Gardens” as the term applies to kayaking. [By the way, I happened to come across Tsunami Rangers just a few days ago while researching the WS Tsunami models; I thought it was about wearing a cowboy hat to block the sun]. If disenchanted by the answer, regroup and think of who you asked. Please don’t call the person a hapless jerk, tunnel-visioned possibly, but ask a focused person a general question, and you’ll get a focused answer. One thing I learned about kayak owners. They all feel their boat is stable and fast, otherwise, they wouldn’t have bought it. So be prepared to follow up with specific questions. Such as, “How does it respond to breaking waves [there is a thread]?” If the response is, “Do you mean spilling, plunging or surging breakers?” And you say, “I don’t care about all that!”, the exchange just ended.
Even if you never ask a question, you will probably find your inquiry in existing threads. No charge or vulnerability to read, but once you drive onto the racetrack, expect to see fast cars and getting bumped. If you get hurt and quit because you didn’t get the answer you “expected” . . . you don’t want to drive a kayak. The first question on a forum should be an easy one, such as: What is the best entry level kayak? Because there are only two simple replies. 1) Buy the cheapest boat, paddle and vest that you can comfortably wear at all times, stay within the parameters of the boat design, don’t overload the safe load limit or venture far from flat protected waters, learn the shortcomings through trial and error, then look for a better boat then sell, or give or loan the many ones you retire to family and friends. Or, 2) buy the best expedition kayak on the market that has a battery operated bilge pump, and make sure the paddle is strong or try making a Greenland Paddle yourself [there’s a thread]. All that information has already been answered. If you want to know about whitewater capabilities, I have no clue. I gave that up after being suspended in a wash tub for five minutes, ignoring upside down fish, while trying to figure out how to get out of the carnival ride retaining feature keeping me from falling free, because after proberly executing the roll manuever, the procedure was so effective, the boat kept rolling. Don’t talk to WW guys, they’re crazy. I think they mostly join specific site, because they get tired of answering questions like how do you keep from drowning while paddling upside down. They think it’s fun and don’t know why “hold your breath” has to be explained. Please give the forum a chance if you’ve felt stung.
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When people, rather new to the forum, want advice for which new rec kayak to get, they will often get resistance to the rec boat concept. Those newbies will say that the boat will not ever venture into unsafe water, will never get far from shore, and that the rec boat is perfectly acceptable. They will still get resistance to the rec boat concept. Why is that?
I think one of the motivations from the resisters follows from this. Newbie kayakers, of course, need to learn how to kayak, but will also learn where they want to go. This may no longer match their original idea. For even the mildly adventuresome, they will typically venture into unsafe water, will get far from shore, and that the rec boat is not acceptable.
Those newbies who pay attention yet still get the rec kayak will at least be informed that the rec kayak has limits which they must accommodate.
So I think the resisters provide useful information e.g.
- get a safe kayak which you can grow into (maybe still not a Nordkapp)
- take lessons from someone competent (maybe even before you get the kayak).
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I think because of the self-selection inherent in this population (people who read a paddling forum) you might overestimate the percentage of people who are mildly (or more) adventuresome.
There are tons of kayak rental businesses in my area and they are all extremely popular. They only rent rec kayaks, and people go out on a calm lake or cove. Many people go repeatedly, and then eventually decide to buy their own rec kayak (cheaper in the long term than repeated rental fees.) They are totally happy with just paddling around the same couple of lakes or whatever. That is what rec kayaks are for. To go back to the bike analogy, many people have an inexpensive hybrid bike that they love to ride on local bike paths, and have no desire to go long distances or race or tour or climb steep hills. Nothing wrong with that, which I assume was the OP’s point … not that rec kayaks can do everything, but that they are sufficient for many people’s intended use.
Is the OP still around and how does he like his new kayak??
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One of the first things a person should ask themselves if they are thinking on getting into kayaking or canoeing, is what do I want to do with the boat. Where do I want to use it. Casual paddling and exploring on small lakes and streams, whitewater, day trip touring, multi day expeditions, fishing, photography, racing, etc. Protected water, big open water, moving water, etc.
A basic lesson is invaluable for any water sport where you will learn at least basic techniques and safety. A good course should definitely give you a good idea as to what type of boat you should consider buying. Consider a course before buying a boat or at least research this aspect first. Whitewater is pretty much a separate area and like racing generally requires specific boats and training if you are serious about it. For fishing, there are many boats that are specific to this activity.
For casual paddling on protected water, almost any boat can be successfully and safely used that way. I’ve explored some creeks with my 18’ boat where I had to back out a quarter of a mile before I could turn around. However, I needed the 18’ boat to get to that creek. As you get into more advanced conditions, you generally need more advanced skills and a boat suitable for these conditions.
While I would support a federal standard for adequate floatation in all canoes and kayaks. a $300 big box store kayak might be the perfect boat for someone, if used in conditions where it can be done safely. It’s good to see people asking for this type of information on this site and others, even if they do not always like the responses they get. At the same time it’s disheartening to see people ask if a boat can be used offshore, on the Great Lakes, or on the Chesapeake Bay when a quick search on the boat manufacturer’s web site, often on the main page for that boat, says that it is definitively not.
As a kid we crossed Lake Erie from Pa to Canada and back in a 16’ fiberglass boat with a 50 HP Merc engine. We didn’t have a plan beyond bringing an extra can of gas. Back then other than oar ships there wasn’t much out there. Now there are radios and guys out there fishing pretty far out. As crazy as that was to do a guy I know decided to walk to Canada with his friend one winter day. They packed a few PB&Js and headed out and they made it.
People abuse or push the limits of everything including rec-kayaks. I’m willing to bet sea kayaks have had their safety factors stretched to their limits also.
This has been my point from my first post there is a range of rec-kayaks and there is a range of what is sensible to try and do with them. No different than canoes IMO. Some guys build saddles into canoes and fill every cubic inch they can with float bags and head out into some crazy places with them. I have a canoe and a higher quality rec-kayak both have enough flotation to at least save the boats. We wear good quality PFDs. We don’t go out in cold water. We don’t do rapids. We boat together or with others 95% of the time. When we do go alone we adjust our expectations. We also carry a variety of other safety measures.
We are going with friends tomorrow they have rec-kayaks. We will do a 12-14 mile stretch of river that’s moving along about 2MPH. There is a feeder creek we might paddle up that’s about 20’ wide and a mile up to a beaver dam. Some spots I can touch both sides with my paddle. We will leave about 10am paddle a couple hours and have lunch on the way tied up under a shade tree unless the Pa State bird the mosquito are too bad.
I know that doesn’t sound too exciting but that’s what we like. We will see whitetail, bank beaver and will pass a couple bald eagle nests. Even turtles sunning and fish jumping. My canoe is overkill but it is what I like and her OT Trip 10 is the perfect rec-kayak for the task.
I’m all in favor of lessons but I can say around here no one gets lessons and if someone did it would be the retired couple not the 13-25 year olds that don’t wear a PDF and don’t give safety a second thought.
I watched 4 young women blow up kayaks and paddle boards the other day and head out into Lake Erie. They never went out more than 100 yards and all had high end PFDs they played around the mouth of our stream for a couple hours and came in. The lake was like glass and at any point they could have been on the beach in a couple minutes. They didn’t seem like they were taking untold risk and they seemed to me to be very much in control of their devices. Our wave action almost always will bring you back in but you might be a ways east of where you want to be.
jyak, somewhere back in this thread, you asked about my children.
The only animal the girls, long since grown women, ever freak about are roaches. We live in the South so I think that’s a bit strange. Roaches are everywhere down here. Snakes they could care less about since I introduced them to many as they were growing up.
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(Bike people only) Bud16415. I made several changes. 48/38/28 when new to 46/36/26. I had a 15 year layoff and have to look to see if it’s now 42/32/22. When chain slip started I swapped out running gear, and 21 speed rear to 24 (13/28 rear expanded to 11/32 (I like it, I like it a lot). It changed wheel dish and axle width 135 to142 mm. Expanded and realigned drops. Switch worn chain to a narrow non-Shimano to avoid their damned one time use pins. 36 spoke hubs were no longer available. LX hub came in 32 or 28, so got a 32 hole Mavic. Shop calculates spoke length, upgrade14g for15g butted. Good sales included XT push/pull shifter with side pull X or Z or what they called their rim brakes. Hoo hoo! That setup still shift without noise if you mind the gates. I just got back in the saddle this July. The Specialized hard foam split saddle still hurting my butt for a week. Old bike, but its still dialed in. Anyway, I apologize if I didn’t emphasize going down hill. I found the steepest hill on a side road near a big barn off the NCRR trail at Monkton, 2 mph to climb, 45 mph descend. Pedal in highest gear, 42/11 or probably 46/13 set, through 42 mph, then it just freewheels. Learn to spin 90 rpm and develop enough power to push speed approaching the peak. Then face on the bars, stomach on the seat. For me it was like setting my hair on fire. Best I could do, one time only. I don’t need disc brakes, because I already fell twice trying slip in/out of toe clips, because I felt as weak as a new colt. It reminded me how much it hurts to fall off a bike or a white water kayak. If you doubt the numbers, your a young 'un and don’t remember 1990 bikes. Everything changed.
Hate WW, yet I read a mature guy asking for advice on safely getting into the WW game. If you haven’t read it, that thread is a model of asking for and receiving help. I think he got lined up withing hours and days. He’s probably winking at the upside down fish as he rotates through. They might be crazy, but those WW guys are professionals.
String. That’s crazy. I do hope they followed your passion for kayaking. I bought rec boats and kept them as I moved up so my kids could share my childhood desire to explore waterways. They didn’t. A daughter now lives on a side creek on the Chesapeake near Middle River. I bought my 12 year old granddaughter a 10 or 11 ft Perception kid model. She used it one year, but outgrew it and gave it to her 10 hesr old sister. She now uses my 125 Tsunami, lauded by so many on this forum. After introductory trips, they crossed Middle River with me and their mother on a 5 mile round trip. I found a 140 Tsunami for the 13 yr old to replace the 125. Kayaking is a true gender equalizer. It has less to do with muscle than it does with brain and drive. And they get to drive the sleek fast kayaks. I drive a freighter.
Our son and his wife are into off road cycling and camping with their 2 boys. Our oldest girl enjoys camping and short paddles with her 2 sons.
By camping, they started in tents but both families have modest hard shell campers now.
Camping. The next best thing to kayaking.
Are used to be a pretty serious Road cycle list until I busted a knee pretty bad. Now I have a couple of sit on tops which I absolutely love I can take to the lake, I can take to a river, I could take to the bay and I can take to the ocean.
I have seen guys on sit on top kayak paddling around the Channel Islands off of Southern California (pretty dynamic terrain). I never understood gear snobs.
Absolutely prevalent among road cyclists motorcyclists, photographers and kayakers.
IMHO - If it takes us particular type of gear to feed your ego then you’ve got a fragile ego
Use what works for you.